The importance of a teacher

Ona Kiser wrote: When I worked with pragmatic dharma teachers I only ever did it via skype.

Me too.

Hey, my first real post here!

Hi Teague.

In response to the teacher question, I think there is a mathematical proof somewhere, even though there are lot's of paths up the mountain, there are 100X more bad paths than good paths. Smart teachers can find the value in any experience, but still many paths are shorter.

I had the regular excellent Goenka 10-day experience, but it was thanks 99% to the dead guy, 1% the front chair. I found a not-so-good-fit teacher in my home city, he helped me gain experience and gave me some good encouragement but also missed lots of opportunities to point out a shorter path.

Meeting people at B-Geeks 2014 and just a little follow-up online has helped me make dramatic advances. Yes, the advances were only possible by my own consistent effort and prior, such as they, were teachers, but I think XX, DW, Nick***-cant keep everybody straight- and you too Teague, have made all the difference. And none of you were really my teachers.

So, I do believe specific guidance is crucial, but gaining the skill to find it when you need it is more reliable than trying to get lucky with one teacher.

Neat, man, welcome.

I'm wondering to my self, what are the ingredients of the skill of finding the right teacher?

I'm thinking a dose of time, the ability to relax... and obviously an eye for practicality.

It's obviously different for everyone - but are there commonalities between them about what comprises a good choice?

I just thought of 'The Cathedral and the Bazaar', a description of open source software development: www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/
Long story short: one random guy describes a problem (that can be solved by software), another guy (on the forum, maybe the original guy does not know him) thinks of an algorithm to solve the problem, a third guy codes up the algorithm, a bunch of people test the code, one guy finds a bug, another guy fixes the bug. Lots of people are involved in the process from idea to working code, people that don't know each other but share a common interest in the results. That's how the Linux operating system came about, software that rivals the best in the world. The internet made it possible. I think that applies to the old-school single teacher system vs the online/forum teacher-of-the-moment system.

So, the skills needed to make best use of the online/forum teacher-of-the-moment system? Well, if this theory is true, someone else will list those skills.

Matt

The one most difficult component is the recognition that one needs instruction, and the willingness to accept it-- at least provisionally, for a time. Especially if it makes our present course, and previous efforts, look "wrong."

matthew sexton wrote: That's how the Linux operating system came about, software that rivals the best in the world.

How many of you are using Linux right now to view this forum?

Chris Marti wrote: Is the practice of meditation with the purpose to attain awakening a problem that lends itself to crowd sourcing? What say you, good Awakenetwork people?

I guess if we want to go all tech analogy then I would say that this forum is more like crowd sourcing than something like open source development (as mentioned above). For example, with crowd sourcing, the 'crowd' gives money, input, and generally attempts to help the process along, and that is where the relationship ends.

The open-source analogy doesn't work for me. No one can else can write your code for you in this path. You are single developer stuck on a tricky function, trying all kind of ways to solve the problem. Others may be able to help nudge you in a direction that helps you untangle a portion of the work but they aren't solving the problem or writing code. It is only a problem you can solve yourself. People may have solved similar problems before but none of those answers seem to cut it for this particular problem. Usually the answer in coding is if you are spending too much time on the problem, the answer is way more simple than how you are trying to figure it out.

On the other hand, a teacher, for example, is more like an angel investor or a board member with more internal knowledge of company. They have skin in the game, per say. They are someone who has done this before and even helped people do it previously. They understand the deep down issues and how to work through them via a 1 on 1 constant feedback loop.

(note: this is a response to chris.)

Crowd sourcing doesn't really work. I don't deny we can get lucky -- sometimes you can get the right person in a crowd tell you the right thing at the right time --- but that's not anything I would count on.

Which raises the question: can you count on a teacher?

I would say qualified yes. Qualified by:

1. You actually chose the teacher out of your own free will.
2. You feel like you are learning something with the teacher.
3. You are becoming >less< dependent on the teacher over time.
4. If things are going bad (i.e. number 2 or 3 isn't happening), you try to stick with it for 6 months or a year before leaving the teacher.

Something like that... or not.

I think there is tremendous benefit to having a sangha of people aiming for the same goals, logging sits, describing stages, and offering advice, but it's no substitute for a teacher. The purpose of this process is to eliminate the self-delusion, which runs contrary to any other endeavor. Most of us already have lots of experience with self-improvement, and going into this experience we tend to imagine that it will be the mother of all self-improvement trips, because that's the only basis we have for understanding it. So all of our instinctual responses will aim at something along those lines, and we'll think, "This is great! Look at what I did!" when something wonderful happens. The expectation of mastery will continue into advanced levels of practice because it dies so hard.

I am reminded of Lama Karma's comments in the group discussion at BG, which is now available. He says when you begin work with a teacher, what you are doing is hiring your own executioner. Sounds hideous, but there is truth to it. He described all his rage, resentment, resistance (the 3 Rs!), and finally, the feeling through it all of being lovingly supported. This is a description that goes beyond crowd-sourcing. We're not brainstorming for the sake of solving a problem. Each of us takes a step out into the unknown. It helps to have a sangha, but for each of us doing it, the experience calls our very existence into radical question.

Chris Marti wrote: One more comment and then a question - I know that crowdsourcing and using the Net to solve problems has huge benefits in some domains but I think we're pushing the envelope when we think it solves all types of problems as easily as it does collaboration on software projects. I think there are many types of problems, some amenable to Net collaboration, some not. So the question becomes --

Is the practice of meditation with the purpose to attain awakening a problem that lends itself to crowd sourcing? What say you, good Awakenetwork people?

I think that's largely unanswerable in any definitive way. But some thoughts based on my own experience and conversations with friends, students and colleagues, using my own language. YMMV. Waking up is dreadfully personal. Ironically impersonal in a certain way, but particularly as ones practice develops it is so personal one could almost call it intimate. Ultimately it's about you and God, and like the hero in some classic fairy tale you have to walk alone into your own fires and mud heaps and become deeply present to your own stuff in a way that no one - not a teacher, not a friend - can do for you. Since the journey involves both novelty and fear, it can be very comforting to find people you can tell your stories to and hear "Oh yeah, it's like that, don't worry." That is a benefit of friends in general. If you are on a spiritual journey and none of your real world friends have spiritual lives, then online friends who do are great to have. It gives one courage, I think.

Beyond that, I think a lot of time is spent just doing human stuff that isn't really about practice, but just "monkey grooming": gossiping, making up tall tales, trying to impress others with your exciting stories, trying to get attention and sympathy for your sob stories, answering questions like you know something, feeling useful and feeling socially connected, that sort of thing. All of which is harmless or harmful depending on the details.

I also think that there's a tendency to think that this or that particular thing is the amazing key to waking up (read this book, participate in that forum, talk to this teacher, use that technique), but to my mind the efficacy of such things is almost (almost) solely in that they are embodiments of intention. ie "Your faith has made you whole" not the fact that you touched Jesus' robe. The more strong embodiments of intention one piles on, the more better for waking up. Body, soul and mind all in.

But, as I think is apparent, even the ability to DO that is some kind of grace. Until we are ready, we can't even hear the teacher's helpful words. Until we are ready, we can't manage to sit daily. Until we are ready, we think we understand what we read, but we barely understand it at all. We don't even know how little we know until the "I'm an idiot" insight starts arising.

More thoughts?

Russell wrote:

Chris Marti wrote: Is the practice of meditation with the purpose to attain awakening a problem that lends itself to crowd sourcing? What say you, good Awakenetwork people?

I guess if we want to go all tech analogy then I would say that this forum is more like crowd sourcing than something like open source development (as mentioned above). For example, with crowd sourcing, the 'crowd' gives money, input, and generally attempts to help the process along, and that is where the relationship ends.

The open-source analogy doesn't work for me. No one can else can write your code for you in this path. You are single developer stuck on a tricky function, trying all kind of ways to solve the problem. Others may be able to help nudge you in a direction that helps you untangle a portion of the work but they aren't solving the problem or writing code. It is only a problem you can solve yourself. People may have solved similar problems before but none of those answers seem to cut it for this particular problem. Usually the answer in coding is if you are spending too much time on the problem, the answer is way more simple than how you are trying to figure it out.

On the other hand, a teacher, for example, is more like an angel investor or a board member with more internal knowledge of company. They have skin in the game, per say. They are someone who has done this before and even helped people do it previously. They understand the deep down issues and how to work through them via a 1 on 1 constant feedback loop.

I see a book deal in your future.

Russell wrote:

matthew sexton wrote: That's how the Linux operating system came about, software that rivals the best in the world.

How many of you are using Linux right now to view this forum?

Me. I'll help this stay on topic and skip all the other things I thought of to say.

matthew sexton wrote:

Russell wrote:

matthew sexton wrote: That's how the Linux operating system came about, software that rivals the best in the world.

How many of you are using Linux right now to view this forum?

Me. I'll help this stay on topic and skip all the other things I thought of to say.

Calm down. I'm only poking at ya. I explained what I meant in the post after.

Chris Marti wrote: Is the practice of meditation with the purpose to attain awakening a problem that lends itself to crowd sourcing? What say you, good Awakenetwork people?

Of course! I do agree, having a (good for me) teacher is a good thing. Of course associating with fellow travellers is also a good thing. The positive results of both associations overlap. The better you know each other the more potential value. I haven't met a pragmatic darmist here in Albuquerque yet (anyone know one?)

In my case, the crucial ingredient was meeting 'the crowd' for a few casual get-to-know you hours. That turned the crowd guys into people I could learn more from. Not that many years ago, I didn't have the -somethingorother- to make that meeting happen. It was learning improvisational acting that made it possible to for me to make the most out of chance meetings. Without learning improv I'd still be post Goenka with no one that I was able to learn from. So that's the answer, Improv leads to awakening.

Then again, I'm pre-path.... maybe the thing I should be hearing here is that I don't know what I need to know or how to learn it? That there's a magic ingredient that surely I don't have and won't get from my good relationships with good people on good forums?

At the moment, I'm banking on more instruction-less hours at Goenka, developing online relationships and growing maturity will get me there. And a growing faith that there's something magical in the practice that 'just works'. But do tell me about a good pragmatic teacher in Albuquerque!

Matt, you may want to talk to Mike LaTorra. He lives in Las Cruces but may know others in New Mexico. He was at the conference as well.

"What are people's experiences with having a teacher, and do you think it was essential to your progress?"

Yes. It is essential, and has been essential for me. It continues.

Experience: Goes way back into the 70's, and earlier, now that I recollect. I think it started with family, and seeing how they are teachers, then into 12 step recovery and finding a good sponsor.
There is nothing that can replace a genuine grimace or smile from a sponsor when checking in.
Then, expanding that outward even more into learning from and with everyone around me.
Then, finding excellent feedback and support on retreats.
Now I have a variety of teachers in a contemplative educational environment, and the exchanges are quite remarkable.
I feel that participating with a teacher is (for me) about letting in abundance, faith, trust and a love of learning and unlearning along the way. Faith is foundational, and with it many more wholesome qualities like self-respect and respect for others grows with it.
Now, my children are my teachers too...and even this moment as I type, I wonder what will be revealed from this?
Maybe this is helpful to you in some way (?).

This topic brought me back to my path, how I'm doing it, where I am with all the stuff listed in Part 1 of MCTB. Which brought me back to this one Buddhist meme, I learned about at my Goenka-1, the virtuous circular process of growth:

1. Needs lead to seeking.
2. Seeking leads to scriptures.
3. Scriptures lead to analysis.
4. Analysis leads to instructions.
5. Instructions lead to experience.
6. Experience leads to transformation.
7. Transformation leads to an evolution of needs.

It occurs to me there could be a few other steps: Instruction leads to activation of family of origin issues arising.
Family of origin issues leads to food binging.
Binging leads to new needs.
New needs leads to new scriptures.
New scriptures lead to eye strain.
Eye strain leads to confusion.
Confusion leads to frustration.
...
I should write a play.

Chris Marti wrote: Matt, I'm not sure I get the message in that. Can you elaborate?

I can see that I was too terse, opaque and vague, lacking emoticons etc.

The first paragraph of my post was a very sincere reporting that this thread has made me review how I'm going about my practice. The answer is, that I'm leaning on re-reading of the basics (part 1 of MCTB where all those simple lists are) about the Buddhist dogma/lists on how to transform oneself using the Dharma. I'm glad for having read this thread, and the study that it has prompted.

Also, the first paragraph related a favourite part of mine from my first ever retreat. I think the original Goenka quote was simpler than what I wrote, it was basically:

1. hear
2. analyse
3. experience and repeat

I expanded the 3 step version to the 7 line version. I like the 7 line version so I guess I was showing off a bit by posting it here online. Writing this I realize that I was trying to put into action how I hope this forum crowd-sourcing etc. can help me. I hope that posting that will either prompt expansions by others, or different views by others, or if it's perfect the way it is, maybe it will help someone else. Not that I feel like my 1 year of experience is leading the way anywhere.

I just re-read the post, realized that 'Instruction' could be interpreted as 'teachers help'. In the context of a thread pondering the relative value of a teachers help vs self-help, maybe my post looks like I'm deriding a teachers help? Nope. I just meant that when the butt hits the cushion, I gotta be following some instructions that could have come from reading, talking to whoever, my own synthesis, whatever. I think I gotta know what I'm trying to do to create the experience that is going to move myself along towards what I want to achieve. If I wonder, "What am I supposed to be doing right now?" I probably need help from somewhere. It may be that the instructions are 'sit with vagueness and discomfort'; fine then do that. But know that it's what I'm supposed to be doing.

The last part is purely meant to be a humorous riff on the idea of taking lists as important and following that to an absurd end. Sorry for not being clear about how I'm participating.

And then there's this:

"Be a light unto yourself! This means that the essential thing is practice. You do not need a teacher to tell you to practice with precise, every-second of the waking day mindfulness, direct perception of the Three Characteristics, and consistent technique, as you can remind yourself of this. You do not need someone else to tell you not to wallow in your psychological crap, as you can remember this yourself. You do not need a teacher to identify the stages of insight for you, as they tend to be obvious, occur in a very predictable sequence, and the instructions for dealing with them are essentially the same: keep practicing, notice each sensation come and go regardless of what it was...if you can remember and apply a very few key instructions, any reasonably good retreat center will do. The few minutes that you get every day or two with a teacher, no matter how good, will mean little if you can't remember and apply these simple instructions. Thus, internalize the dharma, keep your practice on track, use good teachers if you can find them, but above all, realize that responsibility for the quality and results of your own practice falls on you. This is not kindergarten...

...in general I feel that people need to do it for themselves. My book contains a staggering amount of practical information, as do many others, there are numerous places to do the kind of long-term practice that makes all this stuff clear to the person who does that practice. If you are looking outside for answers, the best answers you will get from the "outside" will send you back to your practice. Whatever brief interaction we have, it will be trivial in comparison to investigative practice done well, though clearly there are times when people (including me) benefit from good dharma exchanges..."

Hi Constance - I hadn't realised you were a 12 Step Recovery person. Cool to know I'm not the only one here (and just started working on my 9th which is not easy). I chatted briefly to Sailor Bob in Melbourne about recovery when I met him too. Haven't really read any of the other people who write about dharma/awakening/12 step (e.g. Noah Levine) though I did start reading Gary Nixon's Neo-Advaita 'Sun Rises In The Evening.' But I see a lot of crossover.

Oh and in case no one has said it enough already, I recommend everyone working with a teacher!