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TOPIC: Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting

Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 14 Jan 2016 02:14 #102099

Ingram describes first path fruition as something that happens imid intense noting, as described in his CheetahHouse interview. He actually provides sound effects for this practice, something like an egg beater in water.

Recently we've been talking about fruition as something that happens imid a dreamy state. These sound like two quite different techniques to reach first path.

I just wonder, has anyone here use the furious noting technique and found fruition?

Matt
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 14 Jan 2016 06:01 #102101

Could you transcribe the statement? I, too, wonder about Kenneth/Daniels statements about furious noting in some instances, but then "dreamy and drifty" in other instances.
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 14 Jan 2016 09:38 #102108

matthew sexton wrote:
Ingram describes first path fruition as something that happens imid intense noting, as described in his CheetahHouse interview. He actually provides sound effects for this practice, something like an egg beater in water.

Recently we've been talking about fruition as something that happens imid a dreamy state. These sound like two quite different techniques to reach first path.

I just wonder, has anyone here use the furious noting technique and found fruition?

Matt

From my (possibly faulty) recollection, Daniel was describing the experience of a monk on retreat with strong concentration skills who was able to notice (not note) at extremely high rates while in the throes of A&P. The eggbeater in water sound effect had to do with the clarity and speed of the experiences varying with the breath, increasing on the in-breath, decreasing with the out-breath. Please correct me if I'm mistaken here.

I've personally found it very hard to note in High Equanimity. The conceptuality and intentions of the noting interfered with the actual bare noticing. In any case, the noticing turned out to be way more important than the noting. My take on this is that noting is a skillful means to get to and flow with the noticing.

That said, I have had fruitions while noting, but not Path moments. The vast majority of fruitions, however, have come from noticing and staying with the endings of experiences in the dreamy state.
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 14 Jan 2016 09:45 #102109

A few of us at the last BG conference tried to tease this out of Daniel while at lunch one day. Chris and I pressed on the high speed crazy noting that he claims got him over the edge at the very end of a retreat . So, after telling him my story, he claimed that, yes he was furiously noting the entire retreat, but it was when he finally got frustrated, stopped and then went to go get a cup of coffee that the switch flipped. Am I remembering that correctly, Chris?
Last Edit: 14 Jan 2016 13:42 by Russell.
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 14 Jan 2016 09:55 #102110

Yes, that's right, Russell.

Daniel Ingram said the change occurred AFTER, not during, a noting session. We had to badger him a bit to admit that, but admit it he did.
Last Edit: 14 Jan 2016 18:10 by Chris Marti.
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 14 Jan 2016 13:15 #102113

Chris Marti wrote:
Yes, that's right, Russell.

Daniel Ingram said the change occurred AFTER, not during, a noting session. We had to badger hum a bit to admit that, but admit it he did.
'

THUMP:

The sound of thousands of exhausted imitators throwing in the towel and going to get a cup of coffee?
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 14 Jan 2016 14:04 #102116

"... we've been talking about fruition as something that happens imid a dreamy state" I wonder if that's why evidently people don't always notice an SE event.?
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 14 Jan 2016 14:52 #102118

OK, yeah: vimeo.com/28182458 Here Danial starting 19:50: <egg beater sound effect> "and you would have long ago abandoned noting". Sorry for my mis-remembering this. Thanks for making me review this you guys! :)
Last Edit: 14 Jan 2016 16:17 by matthew sexton.
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 14 Jan 2016 15:30 #102119

Love this place! Thank you, everyone. I don't want to hijack but it seem appropriate to say here. Please continue...
Last Edit: 14 Jan 2016 15:31 by Tom Otvos.
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 14 Jan 2016 16:26 #102121

HA! There are an infinite number of ways to exhaustion, or surrender, or "simply resting", or whatever you want to call it...
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 17 Jan 2016 14:43 #102159

LOL. Some serendipity from FaceBook and Deng Ming-Dao :

"Chen Tuan, or Chen Xiyi (d. 989), invented a Taoist sleeping practice, in which a person slept for days at a time.

Now this broadcast looks more closely at sleep and Alzheimer’s. During sleep, the brain flushes out the toxins that can lead to dementia. “What happens is during sleep the fluid that's normally on the outside of the brain, which is called cerebral spinal fluid—it's a clean, clear fluid - it actually begins to recirculate back into and through the brain along the outsides of blood vessels.

The researchers are hoping to make use of this information to improve wellness. “And it could be anything from having people exercise more regularly or new drugs.” Looks like Chen Tuan (who also created the Twenty-Four Exercises to the Solar Terms featured in “The Lunar Tao”) was thinking the same way.

(Chen Xiyi Asleep, by Hasegawa Tohaku, Ishikawa Nanao Art Museum, Nanao, Ishikawa, Japan)

www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/0...stage-for-alzheimers "
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 17 Jan 2016 14:47 #102160

Also, today's NYT Sunday Review: www.nytimes.com/2016/01/17/opinion/sunda...crastinate.html?_r=0

"... Jihae, now a professor at the University of Wisconsin, designed some experiments. She asked people to come up with new business ideas. Some were randomly assigned to start right away. Others were given five minutes to first play Minesweeper or Solitaire. Everyone submitted their ideas, and independent raters rated how original they were. The procrastinators’ ideas were 28 percent more creative."

So there are many Ways-- and the Way of the Conquering Hero may not be all it's cracked up to be.
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 17 Jan 2016 17:20 #102164

I notice this "wait and see" effect all the time and try my damnedest to take advantage of it whenever I can. The golden egg isn't most often found by the rabbit who runs off so fast they can't see it. This, I think, is a major problem with modern western civilization. We think sooner is better. Faster is better. First is best. I find myself yearning for a slower pace, and more patient demeanor, a leisurely life. I've done fast more than enough. At 59, I'm ready for slow.
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 17 Jan 2016 17:42 #102165

I was going to reply to this thread... but first I'm going to do some internet surfing... :)
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 17 Jan 2016 23:54 #102167

Kate Gowen wrote:
HA! There are an infinite number of ways to exhaustion, or surrender, or "simply resting", or whatever you want to call it...

Is it possible then, that the exhaustion, surrender or resting is the key to "cracking the nut"? Could it be said that it doesn't matter what one does on the cushion as long as it's goal oriented and it's meant to be a frustrated effort?
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 18 Jan 2016 07:01 #102173

(This turned out to be a diatribe... feel free to ignore!)

Unfortunately, that idea has led to a lot of bad spirituality, cults, and exploitation. The classic cult dogma is "all this suffering is good for you, it will lead you to the desired goal, just work harder..."

There is an element of truth that we all need to suffer before we allow ourselves to surrender, but I believe there are healthier paths and a human can decide which path to take. Another classic cult dogma is "it's your destiny to suffer like this, you chose to join..." or even "you are in this caste, you have this color of skin, your family all did the same thing..."

It seems important to remember that Life is endlessly frustrating but very rarely leads to cracking the nut (if you think about all the people who have walked the earth).

Most people have some insecurity around not-suffering. People will self-sabotage because they are afraid of not having the old ways of suffering. Lots of examples of that. Some people actually want more "meaningful" suffering, which is something a cult will play on.

It seems to me that a pre-condition for psychological and spiritual practice is the heartfelt desire to end all the frustrations. Some deep intuition that "life could be so simple..." Even mind-blowing drug induced spiritual experiences seem to be spiritual when they point to something simply transcendent about experience, something beyond all the needless complexity of normal mind... The trick again is that the person needs to take ownership of being complicit in those frustrations. Once again, cults often provide some kind of external rationale for why suffering is occuring, one that doesn't put too much of a demand on the follower. It's the others, the non-believers, the disembodied evil spirits...

It seems to me that the practice -- what ever it is -- needs to include creating a space where there can be the absence of frustrated effort. If someone is always in survival mode or is operating out of compulsive desire, there isn't the opportunity to see the causes of needless frustration. Not many people experience a psychologically safe space or have the ability to "retreat" from worldly life (even for 20 minutes). There has to be the opportunity to build a practice in this safe space otherwise it will never get started, it will be too similar to endlessly frustrating Life. Being in survival mode also makes the mind resistant to any refinement. During new trauma that the mind needs to suppress or repress and it comes up with some coping mechanism. During a repeat of old trauma, that coping mechanism is hard wired plays out. There really isn't a chance for introspection in the midst of trauma. Again, cults play on this by always keeping the level of drama high, so no one has a chance to see or grow...

And then the last aspect is the practice needs to have introspection which looks at subjectivity in an objective way. Cracking the nut can't come from a lot of discursive thinking, otherwise every smart person in the world would have figured this all out. The best practices seem to include both thought and body, so that the basic system of sensation-->desire-->concept-->action can be seen. The part of subjectivity that normally gets overlooked is the desire aspect. It's only in the safe space and slower pace of practice that the utility of the desires can be seen on their own terms. Does it make sense to feel depressed about an old memory? Is it useful to hate the idea of oneself? Is the answer to feeling bad another cup of coffee or a new shirt? Does it really make sense to stay this cult? :) Normally we think desire is a given and proceed onward.

I guess it all boils down to: If we can get the mind out of survival mode and have a practice where we can witness desiring and really study it, then a very primitive level of mind can be refined and the nut gets cracked.

At any given time, the practices that get the mind out of survival mode are more important or the witnessing itself is more important, depending on the situation.
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 18 Jan 2016 07:44 #102174

Yeah, what he said!
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 18 Jan 2016 11:13 #102180

Very good points, Shargrol, touching on hazards that hadn't occurred to me.

I think of practice as having two aspects-- one's personal efforts as the "call", answered by a "response" from the vast, chaotic emptiness of Possibility. In some ways, my nudgings to consider that "other side"-- that we can invite but not command-- are offered as a corrective to the prospect of focusing entirely on one's own unremitting efforts.

But-- this directive COULD be mistaken as advice to slack off and do nothing, or, worse, to offer oneself submissively to harm. That would be a pointless exercise in futility and/or pain.

There is one constant, the sine qua non, that must always be "done," and that is attention. That is a personal responsibility and potential. But human beings are tricky creatures, prone to fooling themselves first of all: that expending tremendous effort makes "better" attention, that staring hard at something means seeing it clearer-- or (contrariwise) that someone else can do the attending for them, tell them what they have or have not perceived.

Shock/surprise/amazement have an explosive energy that cannot be pre-arranged or simulated, so no, sitting-- or inquiring (or maybe praying, either-- I wouldn't know)-- with the EXPECTATION of being frustrated... is another one of those "too clever by half" measures that
are useful only in discovering them to be useless.
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 18 Jan 2016 19:02 #102182

shargrol wrote:
It seems important to remember that Life is endlessly frustrating but very rarely leads to cracking the nut (if you think about all the people who have walked the earth).

Most people have some insecurity around not-suffering. People will self-sabotage because they are afraid of not having the old ways of suffering. Lots of examples of that. Some people actually want more "meaningful" suffering, which is something a cult will play on.

Worth noting here I think that most people don't want to 'crack the nut.' The 'desire to end all frustrations' IS a confidence trick, as lots of us here know - it gives the initial impulse and motivation - something is fundamentally wrong, something is fundamentally lacking - but it turns out that this was all the time a problem of perspective, a misinterpretation.

However the realisation of how tightly we are clinging to old ways of suffering, yet what blessed relief it is to let them go, is humbling!

But if it's true that it's all already here, which is my perspective, then suffering does come to have more meaning. Certainly that has been my experience although as always YMMV. More meaningful suffering seems like a much deeper and more 'mature' goal than 'no suffering' which is really the spiritual materialist version of addiction to sensual desires. Goal orientation is the problem. In this way I'm sympathetic to the neo-Advaita perspective that effortful technique is counterproductive, but with the difference that for me personally, the idea that we live in a universe of objects in which 'other people' or indeed myself may choose to do one practice or else another, with consequences for whether they have a spiritual awakening or not, seems absurd - that's on the one hand a meaningless hypothetical and on the other a fantasy of control.

The important thing (as I've no doubt said before) is not frustration in and of itself, but surrender (to Grace), which paradoxically cannot be done through will or effort. What seems like our effort or choice is Grace working through us, but not of us, of the small self - the effort/release cycle is just part of the human experience, and any event that happens will happen in one part of that cycle (either when I'm efforting, or when I'm resting).
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 19 Jan 2016 06:16 #102193

nevermind
Last Edit: 19 Jan 2016 06:34 by shargrol.
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 19 Jan 2016 07:00 #102195

Thanks Shargrol, Kate and Every3rdthought for your responses. I didn't mean to derail the topic; sorry about that.
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 19 Jan 2016 09:21 #102198

No worries, I think the conversation relates to the pros and cons of "furious noting" :)
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Fruition: dreamy experience vs furious noting 19 Jan 2016 10:36 #102200

Yes, excellent conversational riff on and around topic. All views welcome and needed.
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