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TOPIC: Lets get clear about Final Awakening

Lets get clear about Final Awakening 16 Aug 2018 13:17 #109682

Laurel Carrington wrote:
Thanks for posting this, Antero. I have a question: did you work with a teacher on these Tibetan practices? If o, how—by Skype, on retreat, or other? And do you have any recommendations for resources for the rest of us? Thanks again, Laurel

Before I found a teacher, I did a lot of practice using Reginald Ray's material, especially his audiobooks, which are great and comprehensive. For example the one on Mahamudra has over 30 hours of teachings and guided practices. He has really found a way to condense the essence of vajrayana teachings in simple yet profound practices. One can get very far just with this stuff, but frankly I would not be where I am without a student-teacher relationship and taking retreats with Daniel Brown and his visiting Tibetan Lamas (https://pointingoutway.org/). The courses are not cheap, but good value for money, I have been blown away by all of them, if interested, you can find more info on my practice journal using the tag: retreat.

Btw, some pragmatic dharma yogis would probably appreciate the fact that Daniel started his meditation career studying with Mahasi Sayadaw in Burma in late 70's. :ohmy: He has a scientist background (scientific studies with advanced yogis in early 80's, I think some of it was published in the Transformation of Consciousness co-authored with Ken W. and Jack E.) and mapping skills bordering supernatural. :cheer:

Vajrayana can seem confusing and messy, the best intro I know of is the World of Tibetan Buddhism series by Reginald, especially the second part: Secrets of the Vajra World. He also has a good book on the practical side of his own system: Touching enlightenment, that will probably make more sense after doing some meditation courses at dharmaocean or using his audio material.

When going into the deeper end, there are some more books to recommend, if you are interested, but IMO they are more useful after having solid experience in the actual practices.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 16 Aug 2018 14:58 #109683

Oops, forgot to add earlier: I've spent time studying Aro Buddhism. It's Vajrayana/Dzogchen and was introduced to me by Kate Gowan and another online friend, Mitsu Hadeishi.

Buddhism—as it is most commonly taught—gives an understanding of enlightenment as attainable only for celibates who undertake a life of intensive training and years of solitary retreat. In contrast, the Aro gTér Lineage portrays enlightenment as potentially available to everyone in every moment. Certain Buddhist trends describe involvement with the material world as unclean; seeing secular existence as dangerously delusional – provoking negative emotions such as lust, greed, and anger. The Aro gTér Lineage and other parallel lineages depict the material world as a wondrous garden of delights that we should enjoy with utter thoroughness. Many forms of Buddhism forbid, or advise against, drinking alcohol. The Aro gTér Lineage—representing the transformational approach—requires skilfull imbibing of alcohol when the ‘feast of appreciation and generosity’ is celebrated.

Despite these apparent contradictions, views and practices of the Aro gTér Lineage derive from—and accord with—ancient Buddhist teachings. Contemporary as they may appear, they are not modern innovations. They do not compromise Asian traditions in favour of Western values – but are based on principles, long held by the adventurous independent minority within Buddhism.
Last Edit: 16 Aug 2018 14:58 by Chris Marti.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 16 Aug 2018 15:25 #109685

Chris Marti wrote:
I did go through a lengthy period of thinking nothing worked, and if I'm honest it's because I didn't want to spend the time practicing anymore. I was bored and tired of meditating so much. And, when things would take a turn for the worst, I didn't come back to practice because it was so much easier to just let things work themselves out. What was happening was no longer a mystery. The drive to understand how my experience was being generated was no longer there. I knew how that process worked, so why bother trying to find it again? Ego. Pure ego.

Chris, this is exactly what I am going through now. Its lasted longer than I care for. Thank you for posting this, it gives me courage and inspiration to start up again! I am still unsure if there is a final goal. I think now the word "final" is the wrong choice. Perhaps whatever "it" is, is too paradoxical to put into words. Not that I won't try ;) But I won't find out unless I explore it with some consistent effort and honesty.

I have no idea what is the right practice for me right now, I think any practice will be useful as long as it gets me back in the door. I've always wanted to master the jhanas and I'm liking the new info from MCTB2. It may be just the goal-oriented thing to get the ball rolling, then move on to other gears

2 questions for anyone about the period of post-awakening funk:

1) Practice in general: How do feel about jumping around from technique to technique, suiting your interests/inclination in that moment vs picking one technique and sticking with it for awhile? In my last retreat I used a wide mix of practices throughout each day and I believe I found some synergistic effects (a very non-goekna approach). I especially benefited from non-cushion stuff like walking around and contemplating all this stuff from every angle, trying to see with fresh eyes, challenging my own assumptions, and continually re-writing my summaries of what I know to be true. I would then go to the daily sits and practice noting, concentration, self-inquiry, and all sorts of surrender/allowing this moment practices, then back to intense contemplation. I know there is not one thing that works for everyone, just trying to get more ideas.

2) Do you think that this period of post-awakening stagnation can actually be a natural, if not necessary stage of post-awakening for some? It seems others have gone through this. I don't regret taking time off, just how much time I took. Maybe I needed to distance myself and take a mental break and allow some background sub-conscious dharma to take place.

This is a stretch, but has anyone had the experience of learning a musical instrument for weeks/months on end and then you took a prolonged break and when you came back to playing, sure you felt rusty but somehow more insightful about the music?
Last Edit: 16 Aug 2018 15:27 by Anthony Yeshe.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 16 Aug 2018 16:26 #109686

I believe the post-event funk I was in was due to thinking I didn't need to keep practicing. Like I said, my ego helped me think I was "done" so why not stop altogether? That's why I posted here that the biggest mistake I made post-event was to stop practicing. I don't think it's a natural part of the process, this funk. I think it happened because I didn't know any better. I was conditioned by MCTB and other sources to think that the practice, which I had pursued with zeal for years, had produced the step called "done" and I could stop. So I did. There is a permanence to the shift that occurred but there was still more to do. Oops!
Last Edit: 16 Aug 2018 16:28 by Chris Marti.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 16 Aug 2018 20:38 #109690

Disclaimer: I like disclaimers: Here is another one: my opinions are momentary reactions to external triggers and I often feel they are a burden. No flags planted.

Hi all,

I’m gravitating to using the easy fruition access I have to reduce papanca I.e. mental proliferation.

I do it mostly in the bus and train to and from work. I have had little internal drive to practice hard or share practice since the last big shift years ago. A family, two kids and financial responsibilities are quite the barrier to continued progress as they take priority often. If I weren’t in this situation, I’d imagine my progression would be swifter to a very different territory fetter-wise.

This thread has triggered an opinion on “my” practice. I try to trigger practice for myself occasionally by posting meme’s on the HP blog to act as external reminders. But man, the problem with fruition including practices is that they inherently zap me of the initial desire to initiate the fruition practice in the first place. It makes sense. Papanca is often the only trigger to doing such a practice and fruitions zap the papanca. So I forget to keep doing it more often. This I believe (see disclaimer) would be what makes progress swift if it were a 24 hour practice in a monastic setting. I see immediate results even as a layman, but distractions galore.

Thanks for today’s external trigger, Anthony.

Nick
Last Edit: 16 Aug 2018 20:52 by Nikolai Stephen Halay.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 08:57 #109697

Anthony Yeshe wrote:
Chris, this is exactly what I am going through now. Its lasted longer than I care for. Thank you for posting this, it gives me courage and inspiration to start up again!
Nikolai Stephen Halay wrote:
Thanks for today’s external trigger, Anthony.

There is an expression we use on the hockey bench with our kids: good things happen when you shoot on net. To Anthony and Nikolai, good things happen when you post on AN.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 09:43 #109698

“This is a stretch, but has anyone had the experience of learning a musical instrument for weeks/months on end and then you took a prolonged break and when you came back to playing, sure you felt rusty but somehow more insightful about the music?”

Yes, yes, yes. I played the violin when I was a kid and continued through graduate school, with a break of about 3 years in between. Then I stopped playing for 15 years. Both times I was in a different place coming back. The second time I had lost some technique, like being able to play staccato very fast, but my interpretations had matured.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 09:58 #109699

Chris Marti wrote:
I believe the post-event funk I was in was due to thinking I didn't need to keep practicing. Like I said, my ego helped me think I was "done" so why not stop altogether? That's why I posted here that the biggest mistake I made post-event was to stop practicing. I don't think it's a natural part of the process, this funk. I think it happened because I didn't know any better. I was conditioned by MCTB and other sources to think that the practice, which I had pursued with zeal for years, had produced the step called "done" and I could stop. So I did. There is a permanence to the shift that occurred but there was still more to do. Oops!

I really don’t think regret makes sense in this situation, to throw in my 2 cents worth. You did what you did, and you learned from it. The same thing happened to me, and apparently to a lot of us. Kenneth said on his old website (not the forum) that one of the marks of 4th is the seeker goes away. That’s the engine that powers you to 4th. Once that’s missing, we spend some time taking stock, or at least some of us. As I said earlier, Noah (I’m getting this from your various posts, Noah) kept on going, and I gather he did so because he felt there was still too much suffering that he wanted to eliminate.

In my case, I faced hip replacement surgery and my mother’s dementia, both of which occurred within two months of 4th. In the interval I remember being exhausted and didn’t practice, which Abre told me was normal for someone just getting 4th. With the surgery came several weeks’ worth of narcotic pain killers, plus grief and externally-driven agony. This continued for several months. I went on retreat for 10 days 10 months after 4th and had some trouble with focus, but during that first year and for awhile after I was still able to access the jhanas easily, and I still did some practice at home.

The years that followed were characterized by my trying to come to terms with the increased problem of fibromyalgia, as I recall. I eventually retired. I continued to practice, began going to a new, closer retreat property associated with a nearby sangha and became a practice leader there. I did not practice every day by a long shot, but I continued at home to the best of my ability. Now I am pulling myself up by my bootstraps into a more regular practice. It hasn’t been easy. The jhanas are accessible, but not without a lot of work. The chattering mind infiltrates practice a lot. As I sit more it begins to subside, but when I have a setback it’s as if I’m back to square one.

Mostly I practice open awareness. I’ve been working with Abre. I have been casting about for another direction, but until something feels natural I will stay with what I’m doing. I’m going to move to my own thread for an update.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 10:48 #109700

Laurel, you're making my point, actually, by mentioning Kenneth and Abre. :)

The teachers of record in Pragmatic Dharma assume that one automatically loses their motivation afterward. I'm not sure that's true. I'd want to know if this same pause and reconnoitering happens in other lineages at the same or a similar point in practice for those folks. Also, our PD teachers might not be doing their best to help their students if they don't figure out a way to help them through whatever it is that they say happens at that point. I'm not blaming them, just pointing out that something accepted as common "wisdom" that might not actually be.

Anyway, I know what I know about myself, and there's no point in denying that it was mostly hubris that justified the stopping of my formal practice. There was always a nagging little voice telling me it wasn't the best idea, but I did it anyway.
Last Edit: 17 Aug 2018 10:59 by Chris Marti.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 13:27 #109701

Okay, Chris, I guess I didn’t fully understand your point. The PD community is learning about all this as we go along, and Anthony has advanced the common store of knowledge by posting about it and prompting the rest of us to chime in.

I want to be fair to Abre, though: eventually she began prodding me to get back to it. It didn’t do much good, mainly because I was deep into my own confusion. Maybe with more understanding we’ll know how to lead post-4th people through and out of the doldrums, but at the moment it’s about as difficult as getting any student to practice more than they’ve got a mind to, pre or post-path. Your reason was hubris, mine was my life blowing up, but the result was the same.

Another problem I faced was distraction and addiction. To make a long-ish story short, I got an iPad. More about that on my own thread.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 13:45 #109702

Chris Marti wrote:
The teachers of record in Pragmatic Dharma assume that one automatically loses their motivation afterward. I'm not sure that's true. I'd want to know if this same pause and reconnoitering happens in other lineages at the same or a similar point in practice for those folks. Also, our PD teachers might not be doing their best to help their students if they don't figure out a way to help them through whatever it is that they say happens at that point. I'm not blaming them, just pointing out that something accepted as common "wisdom" that might not actually be.

I just checked my practice journal. I wrote this few weeks after the 4th path moment:

"Some sense of urgency seems to be gone and I feel quite content in just being present." and
"During the last couple of days the feeling of completing some sort of cycle or phase and beginning a new one has grown stronger. I feel like a blank slate, tabula rasa. I know nothing and there is nothing I need to know."

I remember that feeling: something new is starting but I have no idea what it is. It definitely did not feel like the end of the path and I trusted that.

There was no intention to continue practicing after that, but reading my notes, it seems that the mind naturally moved on to the next practice on it's own. This changed pretty soon, though. I was seeing Kenneth regularly at the time and soon he gave me everything he was exploring himself. And it seemed like right way to go.

I have heard that in Dzogchen circles, when you get your view of awakened awareness (rigpa) easily accessible, people can get complacent in their practice, so It might be common.
Last Edit: 17 Aug 2018 13:47 by Antero.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 14:03 #109703

Like all things mind-related, this event caused some effects that lasted for a time but then seemed to fade. I can recall the immediate post-event period and yes, there was a lot of joy and calm and blissful awareness. Something wonderful had occurred. It took time to figure out just what it was. If you read my online journal you'll see that I didn't post at all for a few days because I wasn't sure what was going on. That initial "honeymoon" period lasted a few weeks, maybe a month, maybe a little longer. But I think we're talking about more extended periods of time here, which is what I think Anthony intended (Anthony?).

I went several years without a formal practice. I'm asking for more data - was there a post-event honeymoon for you? How long did that last? Did that contribute to a long-term lack of motivation in your practice? In my personal experience, no. It was what I've already 'fessed up to.

Thoughts?
Last Edit: 17 Aug 2018 17:23 by Chris Marti.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 14:14 #109707

The PD community is learning about all this as we go along...

Absolutely, Laurel, and so were the retinue of PD teachers we know. I think we were all playing it by ear, riffing and experimenting. I do think there's room now, really a call to duty, to extend the PD path beyond this one particular event and into the integration of awakening into our lives and translating the grokking of reality into action. Behavior. Compassion. Duty to others. There are those who have tried but many of them went down the path of extinguishing those traits that make us human. I can't go there. Maybe this group, we here now, can help find the way forward to being awake and dealing with our human-ness but without having to extinguish it.
Last Edit: 17 Aug 2018 14:15 by Chris Marti.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 14:24 #109708

Chris Marti wrote:

Behavior. Compassion. Duty to others.

Agreed! :cheer:

Citius, Altius, Fortius of Pragmatic Dharma :lol:
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 15:50 #109709

Chris Marti wrote:
Like all things mind-related, this event caused some effects that lasted for a time but then seemed to fade. I can recall the immediate post-event period and yes, there was a lot of joy and calm and blissful awareness. Something wonderful had occurred. It took time to figure out just what it was. If you read my online journal you'll see that I didn't post at all for a few days because I wasn't sure what was going on. That initial "honeymoon" period lasted a few weeks, maybe a month, maybe a little longer. But I think we're talking about more extended periods of time here, which is what I think Anthony intended (Anthony?).

I went several years without a formal practice. I'm asking for more data - was there a post-event honeymoon for you? How long sis that last? Did that contribute to a long-term lack of motivation in your practice? In my personal experience, no. It was what I've already 'fessed up to.

Thoughts?

Yes, but my curiosity is now expanded. Isn't it looking to be similar to how the dark night is explained (based on personal conditioning): it may breeze past for some and linger on excruciatingly slow for others.

Maybe this is comparable. Maybe this is where precepts, karma, compassion, and previous diligent practice/stability factors into the post-awakening fallout?

Me: During my climb to 4th, my life was less than wholesome- I drank too much, my career/relationships were neglected, my mind was wild. It was the pressure of all this + the need to see the truth gave me the necessary fire and pure intent to practice insanely hard and finally see it, despite my less than wholesome life. Post-4th, I had that nice honeymoon period where I could finally relax my intense search, and despite still having interest in going forward, I took a break and tried to heal my life a bit (to success, by the way). I just fell into a period of practice-funk that lasted too long (similar reasons as Chris explained, plus laziness on my part), but this ended up fueling the questions that I have been asking this month- years of wondering, not doing. I din't see this coming. I was just lurking as usual and replied to the participation thread last week, which exposed in me a huge knot of energy and this past week of writing has completely unraveled it. (Thanks everyone!) I am ready now, don't know why it took so long. But I suspect it was what I needed. The non-spiritual aspects of my life are doing very well and I am very stable and generally happy. I am in a great place now to jump into the "infinite-development" phase of practice without worry of life-derailment. My quest to answer my abiding non-duel awareness question is plenty motivation/inspiration for me to get serious again. Maybe divine intervention, most likely dumb luck, but I am glad for this time that I have spent away from progressing the path. And I am double glad for wanting to return again!

To continue the thought:
Some, like Antero, probably had their shit together way more than I did, and had a stronger base of meditation experience and were naturally ready to move on without delay. I would guess that it would be good for a teacher to know what a student needs in their particular case. Maybe they should take a good break away from all things spiritual, if that is what they seem to need (with the instruction for them to keep an eye on how their mind experiences it). They could schedule a follow up visit in a few months with them and see if the rest period helped them catch back up with other things in their life.

Think about it, teachers don't go out into the world looking for perfect students with impeccable meditation consistency and a stable, healthy home life. It is the student who, when getting pulled onto this ride for whatever wacky reason they got hooked into it, really needs a teacher to help them past obstacles. Then, in my view, once 4th path (or similar) has been attained and the "hair-on fire" student can finally take a break from all the madness, it would be good to sit down, take an inventory of your life, and balance things out if you need to. All the further progress stuff will always be waiting for you when you get back, it wont be lost forever.

Again, there are also others that are in the clear, have great momentum going, and need to just keep going post 4th path, and may even be counseled by a teacher to push past this phase of any non-motivation and keep going any damn ways. I'm not sure what the carrot here would be, which is why I am leaning towards a cycle where you take a break to get space from the motivation that once defined your practice but now have lost, and actually get stuck again so you can now focus on what the next reason for you is to continue diligent practice.

This was a messy ramble, but does that make sense to anyone?
Last Edit: 17 Aug 2018 15:52 by Anthony Yeshe.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 16:00 #109710

Chris Marti wrote:
The PD community is learning about all this as we go along...

Absolutely, Laurel, and so were the retinue of PD teachers we know. I think we were all playing it by ear, riffing and experimenting. I do think there's room now, really a call to duty, to extend the PD path beyond this one particular event and into the integration of awakening into our lives and translating the grokking of reality into action. Behavior. Compassion. Duty to others. There are those who have tried but many of them went down the path of extinguishing those traits that make us human. I can't go there. Maybe this group, we here now, can help find the way forward to being awake and dealing with our human-ness but without having to extinguish it.

One thing Mark Nunberg said to me in our conversation post-retreat (described on my thread) that was interesting is that I made immense, rapid progress and now I needed to catch up with myself (paraphrasing here). Maybe the rapidity of the progress leaves us feeling blindsided when we’re suddenly dumped on the other shore thinking, what was that all about?

There are some thinkers like Ken Wilber who’ve worked out a detailed map of concurrent paths that can overlap in a variety of ways. You mention behavior, compassion, and duty as translating insight into action. It could be another vector altogether, which is why some folks went down another path after 4th. As Daniel says in MCTB, many unawakened people are far more ethical and compassionate than many awakened ones. Another thought: after the intense self-focus getting there, can we pivot to a focus on others afterward?
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 16:08 #109711

Antero wrote:
One can get very far just with this stuff, but frankly I would not be where I am without a student-teacher relationship and taking retreats with Daniel Brown and his visiting Tibetan Lamas (https://pointingoutway.org/). The courses are not cheap, but good value for money, I have been blown away by all of them, if interested, you can find more info on my practice journal using the tag: retreat.

Btw, some pragmatic dharma yogis would probably appreciate the fact that Daniel started his meditation career studying with Mahasi Sayadaw in Burma in late 70's. :ohmy: He has a scientist background (scientific studies with advanced yogis in early 80's, I think some of it was published in the Transformation of Consciousness co-authored with Ken W. and Jack E.) and mapping skills bordering supernatural. :cheer:

Random coincidence - I happened to be traveling for work to Newton, MA this week. So I went this past Wednesday night to Dan's class & met the man himself. It was awesome. Better than the videos :P
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 16:21 #109712

Chris Marti wrote:
Behavior. Compassion. Duty to others. There are those who have tried but many of them went down the path of extinguishing those traits that make us human. I can't go there. Maybe this group, we here now, can help find the way forward to being awake and dealing with our human-ness but without having to extinguish it.

What I've learned about this topic - www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/me...ards/message/6363460
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 16:44 #109713

Yes I have experienced that alot over the years with guitar playing - I always used to worry if I didn't play for a while that it would be really hard getting back into it, but when I did play, there was more insight and ideas than before.

Just another idea, maybe we are trying to approach practice the same way as pre 4th and worrying that it doesn't make sense. It would be good to acknowledge that practice will be different from the highly structured disciplined approach that got us here. I have realised one interesting thing out of participating in this thread - that I actually have been practicing without really realising it - the whole perspective is much more aware and mindful than it was, there is practice going on but just not as conscious and controlled as before and not as definable, it moves through different approaches with changes in circumstance and energy levels etc. Sometimes its being aware of what is happening, other times its being aware of being aware, other times its just being in stillness in the midst of everything going on. I would call this practice actually - but very different to what I did before. Does this resonate for others here? :)
Last Edit: 17 Aug 2018 16:45 by Rod.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 17 Aug 2018 22:24 #109714

Rod, I feel some of that resonating with me. Even without a formal practice, the mind is doing things on its own that it hasn't done before. The ego keeps showing its hand. I'm not yet sure my approach. Certainly not the same mentality of pre-4th, but I am starting to see some value in the same practices that got me here. They have a different purpose now and that seems interesting to explore
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 18 Aug 2018 00:46 #109716

Noah wrote:

Random coincidence - I happened to be traveling for work to Newton, MA this week. So I went this past Wednesday night to Dan's class & met the man himself. It was awesome. Better than the videos :P

Do you still believe in coincidences? ;)
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 18 Aug 2018 07:07 #109717

Thanks Anthony,
It occurred to me, (and I am just throwing this down here and its more a reflective process so please excuse the clumsy articulation) that maybe the feeling post 4th (whatever we are calling it) like we are bobbing around having no great drive to do anything etc - maybe this is the mind playing tricks again. Maybe I have no spiritual drive because its been realised at a fundamental level that there is nothing to do. Ultimately this gig is about letting go of all concepts and ideas etc (after all thats the process of death right?) so its no surprise if by practicing hard for it, I got it (to a greater level than before at least). I used conceptual practices (the perspective of pre 4th) to realise the illusory nature of it all and of course thats the genius of those practices - they use the territory to see through the territory (Shamatha and Vipassana). So when they work and I reach a stable perspective that sees the truth of its illusory nature, it should also be no surprise that my conceptual habits of mind interpret this new perspective as rather aimless and pointless and I have decided, to varying degrees, that its not good and something must be wrong and done about it :lol:. When actually, its exactly as it should be. (DOH!! to self)

For me at least, it explains why the only practice that really made sense to me and I could do is the practice of no-practice (using this term broadly - not suggesting that everyone should do dzogchen specifically - and its not the only view that has this approach anyway) - just being, and this is harder than all the practices before - integrating that as the 'new normal'. And I have been very confused and perplexed by that, because its almost opposite to how it was in almost every way before. But I am coming to see that its exactly as it should be and that to try and make practices that utilise conceptual frameworks would be to try and return to a previous perspective, which is why it didn't/doesn't feel right. I went at the previous practices like there was no tomorrow - it felt right, it was right for what was needed - there was such an intuitive alignment. Now the contrast is so stark. When I reflect on each practice I did before, almost every minute of the day, now it just feels weird to do it both at that intensity and I can't find a reason for it. But intuitively it does feel right to get used to the 'new normal' of where words don't adequately describe and there is nothing too do except do nothing and not even do nothing....... This is confounding to my conceptual mind, the difference now is that its a solid 'knowing' that cannot be conceptualised away and thats why its confusing as trying to make it work in the conceptual sense just won't fit anymore. .....Or maybe I am just being optimistic :lol:
Last Edit: 18 Aug 2018 07:18 by Rod.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 18 Aug 2018 08:59 #109718

I want to be as attentive as possible as often as possible. I think that's a spiritual drive :P

But seriously, who among us is awake for every single minute? I see awakening as a moment to moment affair. It's not a state. It's a capability, a view, a lens through which we can experience life. The switch into that view gets flipped at a certain point but it's not permanently available with no effort whatsoever - we do have to open the aperture and then keep it open. I think that's why even the most awakened human beings tend to maintain a steady meditation practice. When I stopped practicing regularly I could feel that view fade, if ever so slowly. I could observe habits re-forming. Ignorance and reactivity were creeping back to where they "wanted" to be. I find regular meditation sessions, and trying to be attentive as much as possible, work to not only counteract that creeping ignorance but to increase the amount of time all day every day that wisdom is available. I suspect almost any practice will help do that.

My personal opinion is that it's easy to conceptualize "where" we are on maps and in stages, and think that we need special things at certain junctures that are tied to "where" we are post-awakening. But the view and the maintenance of that view isn't that complicated and my experience is that practice is overly complicated by the mind, even after that point is reached. Mind never stops conceptualizing.

So Rod, yes, I agree that our minds are messin' with us!

:cheer:
Last Edit: 18 Aug 2018 09:15 by Chris Marti.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 18 Aug 2018 10:02 #109719

Mind never stops conceptualizing.

So Rod, yes, I agree that our minds are messin' with us!


Papañca.
Last Edit: 18 Aug 2018 10:03 by Nikolai Stephen Halay.
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Lets get clear about Final Awakening 18 Aug 2018 16:42 #109725

Antero wrote:
Noah wrote:

Random coincidence - I happened to be traveling for work to Newton, MA this week. So I went this past Wednesday night to Dan's class & met the man himself. It was awesome. Better than the videos :P

Do you still believe in coincidences? ;)

Working on it !
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