Attempt to explain an insight

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12 years 4 months ago #4179 by Dharma Comarade
Attempt to explain an insight was created by Dharma Comarade
Humans (myself most specifically) can constantly construct their own potential for suffering.
Either alone, or in tandem with another or others we can set up expectations, goals, requests, demands, etc. on ourselves, each other or reality that cause frustration, regret, guilt, disappointment, horror, and worse if we or others or life do not live up to the expectations, etc. And, the thing is, this set up for pain and suffering is just something that we made up in our minds and then fed and nurtured and customized and developed with more thinking, talking, and other forms of development.
If one or more or ALL of these set ups are seen through as they really are they can fall apart and shattered before our eyes and we can end up in a place of great relief, peace, and clarity.

I think for many of us this process (without the pain relieving insight) is going on constantly in our lives small and large ways - insidious and subtle and cloaked in layer and after layer of patterns of thought and desire.

I think I am asserting that a practice of objective open awareness of things is a method that can create the relief I've put in bold above. One can get relief from just one self-created set up, or, sometimes, from all or most of them. This relief can come and go depending on the qualities of one's awareness.

This process of awareness can be undertaken in a formal "dharma practice" just as zen or vipassana, etc. or through other spiritual practices that are available, or, just from a person having the luck and talent to find themselves able to really look at things. (or I think with a really good experience of one on one therapy)

I think moments in practice when one really "sees" rather than conceptually understands one, two, or all three of the three characteristics can instantly/temporarily bring relief from this created suffering and bring one back to silent, open, empty, lovely earth. These moments can also sow the seeds for starting a new set up of expectations for how to repeat the relief experience again and, unfortunately, just bring more suffering.

I want to come up with real life examples of this and will try to do so if I get a break in work later.

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12 years 4 months ago #4180 by Chris Marti
The Four Noble Truths!

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12 years 4 months ago #4181 by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Attempt to explain an insight


The Four Noble Truths![image]

-cmarti


word

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12 years 4 months ago #4182 by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Attempt to explain an insight
Many times recently I've wondered if the "four noble truths" was meant by Mr. Buddha to just describe a process of the creation of suffering and it's eventual/possible relief that can happen over and over in various ways big and small -- rather than some complete ending place in which all suffering process are gone entirely, or extinguished for good.

What I'm trying to get at here is some kind of an almost secular, non-dogmatic, ALIVE way of looking at all this stuff.

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12 years 4 months ago #4183 by Chris Marti
Not a tall order at all ;-)

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12 years 4 months ago #4184 by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Attempt to explain an insight


Not a tall order at all ;-)

-cmarti


I know, but it is fun to try.

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12 years 4 months ago #4185 by Ona Kiser



Many times recently I've wondered if the "four noble truths" was meant by Mr. Buddha to just describe a process of the creation of suffering and it's eventual/possible relief that can happen over and over in various ways big and small -- rather than some complete ending place in which all suffering process are gone entirely, or extinguished for good.

What I'm trying to get at here is some kind of an almost secular, non-dogmatic, ALIVE way of looking at all this stuff.


-michaelmonson


Just to play devil's advocate...

When you say "an almost secular, non-dogmatic, ALIVE way of looking" you imply that other ways of looking that you have knowledge of are religious, dogmatic and DEAD. :)

Does this mean:
religious = having to believe in Gods, spirits, angels, mystical experiences...and this is uncomfortable for me
dogmatic = there's a system of practices and beliefs handed down for generations and believed to be useful, correct, and fairly inflexible...and this is uncomfortable for me
Dead = something I don't like

?

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12 years 4 months ago #4186 by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Attempt to explain an insight


Just to play devil's advocate...When you say "an almost secular, non-dogmatic, ALIVE way of looking" you imply that other ways of looking that you have knowledge of are religious, dogmatic and DEAD. :) Does this mean:religious = having to believe in Gods, spirits, angels, mystical experiences...and this is uncomfortable for medogmatic = there's a system of practices and beliefs handed down for generations and believed to be useful, correct, and fairly inflexible...and this is uncomfortable for meDead = something I don't like?

-ona


I don't think it is as complicated as all that and I'm not sure what comfort has to do with it.

I just mean that coming to insights and moments in which suffering can be reduced or eliminated might be more likely if it is lived by a person on a personal level, rather than through books, lists, rules, instructions, myths, rituals. And, this is nothing original to me (basically ALL of J. Krishnamurti's talks about "choiceless awareness" were attempts to get at this, at a way of seeing oneself's new and original right now without the filter of prior knowledge or belief.

So, while all the religions, dogmas, etc. of the world are great for so many reasons, they aren't much use when attempting to gain real insight into one's own behaviors -- that's is what I mean by "DEAD," they aren't alive, they are just laying there as words, thoughts, memories. What is "ALIVE," I think is that moment when one really sees something when looking with no preconceived notions.

For a couple of years now I've been saving these two quotes from Mahasi Sayadaw from his vipassana instructions:

"In vipassana meditation what you name or say
doesn't matter. What really matters is to know or perceive."


and

"There
must be no gaps, but continuity between a preceding act of noting and a
succeeding one, between a preceding state of concentration and a succeeding one,
between a preceding act of intelligence and a succeeding one. Only then will
there be successive and ascending stages of maturity in the mediator's
understanding. Knowledge of the path and its fruition are attained only when
there is this kind of accumulated momentum"

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12 years 4 months ago #4187 by Shargrol
I think Buddha's 4 noble truths -- which is actually 10 truths because the first four are just a sell job for the 8-fold path -- boils down to: dig it man, we're totally bringing this suffering on ourselves, before we're even conscious of it, but if we get clear on the whole deal, we ain't gonna make that mistake, and while our bad habits gonna trip us up from time to time, that's no excuse, and things will get clearer and easier as things go anyway, plus it's not just good for you, but for everyone around you, in fact your life is tightly linked to those around you, really really linked.

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12 years 4 months ago #4188 by Chris Marti
"So, while all the religions, dogmas, etc. of the world are great for so many reasons, they aren't much use when attempting to gain real insight into one's own behaviors -- that's is what I mean by "DEAD," they aren't alive, they are just laying there as words, thoughts, memories. What is "ALIVE," I think is that moment when one really sees something when looking with no preconceived notions." -- Mike

Practice, any practice, gets VERY personal for a person who does it properly. That's not to say that your insight isn't a good one. It is! But see, the practice is very much alive for me. I don't think the practice you had a year ago was alive for you, which is why you are appropriately excited now -- you have found something that gets you cranked up to face life honestly and directly, as well as your reactions to it.

All very cool!

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12 years 4 months ago #4189 by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Attempt to explain an insight
This part of what I'm saying (alive vs. dead) is not a new thing for me at all. And, I'm not more excited by practice lately, just happier from it. What is really new for me is dropping that dreary, painful sort of anti-self attitude that some of us (though not all or even most maybe) can get into and, instead, learning to once again embrace my self and let it flow on out.

And, I love Chris Marti.

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12 years 4 months ago #4190 by Tom Otvos
I think that *all* insights are personal. They can't really be anything else.

A while back I had toyed with the idea of creating a thread here where people would post their "insights" because I felt that I was missing something. When you read MCTB, for example, there are many, many references in the stage descriptions of "getting insights" but then nothing more. I remember scratching my head over that thinking "WTF? What specific insights am I supposed to get before I can move on?" But now I realize there would be any value in a thread like that because what is important/insightful to *you* will likely have no impact on me or, probably more to the point, reading about it won't have the *same* impact on me.

I guess there is no escaping the fact that your practice is your own, once you get the basic toolset.

-- tomo

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12 years 4 months ago #4191 by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Attempt to explain an insight


I think that *all* insights are personal. They can't really be anything else. A while back I had toyed with the idea of creating a thread here where people would post their "insights" because I felt that I was missing something. When you read MCTB, for example, there are many, many references in the stage descriptions of "getting insights" but then nothing more. I remember scratching my head over that thinking "WTF? What specific insights am I supposed to get before I can move on?" But now I realize there would be any value in a thread like that because what is important/insightful to *you* will likely have no impact on me or, probably more to the point, reading about it won't have the *same* impact on me.I guess there is no escaping the fact that your practice is your own, once you get the basic toolset.

-tomo


Like everything to me lately, I think this is completely true while at the same time -- not.

I think for "awakening" there are necessary insights --- anicca, dukka, anatta. However, to see those three things clearly requires a constant refreshing of a living awareness rather than a conceptual understanding. Also, once seen, perhaps one must keep a don't know mind so that continued insight is still fresh and alive. And, maybe, the specific qualities of anicca, dukka, and anatta to each person and their relationship to each moves and changes constantly so one can never pin them down since they are only something that can be known in the vibrant now and not later while thinking.

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12 years 4 months ago #4192 by Ona Kiser
I agree, Tomo - You can read or talk about all kinds of insights by reading the classic teachings and texts of relevant traditions or talking to good teachers and colleagues. But you can't experience them by reading about them, and each person experiences them in their own context. And you can and will actually experience them even if no one told you about them and you never read anything about them. You don't need a list of things to "get" - they "get themselves" all by themselves in their own time.

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12 years 4 months ago #4193 by Jackson
Ah, but this topic is so vast! :-D



Where Mike phrased his last comment in terms of, "Yeah, but...", I'm going to take the, "Yes, and..." approach (which is basically the same thing).



One interesting thing about so-called classical insights - such as anicca, dukkha, anatta, shunyata, etc. - is that they may count as insights in and of themselves, OR as strategies leading to other insights, which may or may not be predictable.



For example, let's say that during practice I am visited by a memory from my college days. I remember how I was mistreated by someone important to me, and I am caught in the negative thought and feeling patterns, and thus, I suffer. So, I investigate the experience at vaious levels (body, feelings, emotions, thoughts, responses, etc.), and let's say I use anatta as a pointer to look into whether or not I am this experience; or rather, whether or not I am still the college student who was wronged at some point in the assumed objective past.



And then it hits me... not just that this is "not me, not mine," but rather... "OH MY GOD, I CAN LET THIS GO! I CAN CHANGE MY RELATIONSHIP TO THIS BY LOOKING AT IT DIFFERENTLY!!!"



Now, this has anicca, anatta, dukkha, and shunyata written all over it. But, are those really the key insights here? In some ways yes, and there's more. There's also the insight that things can change based on my choices; my willingness to engage my experience and to let go of resistence; my capacity for the couragous application of presence to whatever comes up, and that this all leads to freedom!



The psychological nature of some insights leads some of us more pragmatic/hardcore dharma kids to dismiss them as relative rather than universal, but that dichotomy doesn't really apply. For, it must always be applied directly by an individual, and so in a certain way ALL insights are relative - even if we conceptually frame them as universal simply because others report similar experiences.



And of course I'm not saying that there aren't universal insights. What I am saying is (to keep the broken record skipping over the same phrase) it depends on how you look at it.



The more I practice and talk about this stuff, the more I see why realized people are so often perceived as fools.

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12 years 4 months ago #4194 by Ona Kiser
I like your very clear example, Jackson!

(Could we also say that if you don't write it in ALL CAPS it's not an insight? Cuz they feel like that.)

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12 years 4 months ago #4195 by Ona Kiser
Could we say, Jackson, as in your example, that an insight is most often a rather shocking realization that something you always thought worked or was one way actually works or is another way?

(Totally open to being master of the obvious here - slap me if necessary)

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12 years 4 months ago #4196 by Jackson
Yeah, that's one way it could be described.

Perhaps insights are game changers. That, and since we're talking about contemplative practice here, such insights are those experiential knowings which are transformative, even if all that changes is that you find that there's another option available, and that it's something you can do/practice.

Even this doesn't really capture it.

Here's part of the problem. We all know that there are people who think that being enlightened/awakened/liberated is a simple as looking for a "self", discovering that one cannot be found, and than accepting this conclusion wholeheartedly. To be sure, such a paradigm shift will likely change one's perception of life, experience, and everything. But is that the kind of "insight" we're talking about? Probably not.

The above, I believe, is a description of what Ken Wilber refers to as Translation. That is, adopting a new point of view. It's like rearranging the furniture in your apartment. Things are different, sure, but you're still in the same place, on the same floor. Things just have a different flavor.

This is in contrast to Transformation, which is literally moving up a floor, or out of the building all together. One may or may not bring some of their old furniture with them in this case. And why not? Not everything about the old place was bad. It was just outgrown.

Insights, as I conceive of them, bring tranformation. Even if some translation happens, that's not where the emphasis lies. I realize that the process of defining "insight" is arbitrary, but I'd rather have high standards than easy, insignificant standards.

A work in progress, for sure. Thoughts?

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12 years 4 months ago #4197 by Kate Gowen



(Could we also say that if you don't write it in ALL CAPS it's not an insight? Cuz they feel like that.)


-ona


Well, speaking strictly for myself, I'd be kinda embarrassed to post: OMG! I'M AN EFFEN IDIOT! THIS IS WHAT MY TEACHER MEANT!

Lately, this is the lather-rinse-repeat cycle of insight.

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12 years 4 months ago #4198 by Jackson
Haha! Love it, Kate.

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12 years 4 months ago #4199 by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Attempt to explain an insight


Yeah, that's one way it could be described.Perhaps insights are game changers. That, and since we're talking about contemplative practice here, such insights are those experiential knowings which are transformative, even if all that changes is that you find that there's another option available, and that it's something you can do/practice.Even this doesn't really capture it.Here's part of the problem. We all know that there are people who think that being enlightened/awakened/liberated is a simple as looking for a "self", discovering that one cannot be found, and than accepting this conclusion wholeheartedly. To be sure, such a paradigm shift will likely change one's perception of life, experience, and everything. But is that the kind of "insight" we're talking about? Probably not.The above, I believe, is a description of what Ken Wilber refers to as Translation. That is, adopting a new point of view. It's like rearranging the furniture in your apartment. Things are different, sure, but you're still in the same place, on the same floor. Things just have a different flavor.This is in contrast to Transformation, which is literally moving up a floor, or out of the building all together. One may or may not bring some of their old furniture with them in this case. And why not? Not everything about the old place was bad. It was just outgrown.Insights, as I conceive of them, bring tranformation. Even if some translation happens, that's not where the emphasis lies. I realize that the process of defining "insight" is arbitrary, but I'd rather have high standards than easy, insignificant standards.A work in progress, for sure. Thoughts?

-awouldbehipster


Jackson, that is one freaking awesome post.

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12 years 4 months ago #4200 by Jackson
Thank you, Mike.

_/|\_

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12 years 4 months ago #4201 by Ona Kiser


Yeah, that's one way it could be described.
Perhaps insights are game changers. That, and since we're talking about contemplative practice here, such insights are those experiential knowings which are transformative, even if all that changes is that you find that there's another option available, and that it's something you can do/practice.
Even this doesn't really capture it.
Here's part of the problem. We all know that there are people who think that being enlightened/awakened/liberated is a simple as looking for a "self", discovering that one cannot be found, and than accepting this conclusion wholeheartedly. To be sure, such a paradigm shift will likely change one's perception of life, experience, and everything. But is that the kind of "insight" we're talking about? Probably not.
The above, I believe, is a description of what Ken Wilber refers to as Translation. That is, adopting a new point of view. It's like rearranging the furniture in your apartment. Things are different, sure, but you're still in the same place, on the same floor. Things just have a different flavor.
This is in contrast to Transformation, which is literally moving up a floor, or out of the building all together. One may or may not bring some of their old furniture with them in this case. And why not? Not everything about the old place was bad. It was just outgrown.
Insights, as I conceive of them, bring tranformation. Even if some translation happens, that's not where the emphasis lies. I realize that the process of defining "insight" is arbitrary, but I'd rather have high standards than easy, insignificant standards.
A work in progress, for sure. Thoughts?


-awouldbehipster


I think you're poking in the right direction. Insights in the sense we are (or at least I am) talking about happen *to* you. You don't find them or have them or figure them out. That's conceptual/intellectual understanding. Insight/realization is a dawning, transformative experiential realization that happens to you without your decision and without you making it happen through any direct effort (think! think harder! stop thinking! open the mind! relax! breath! no, faster! stand up! sit down! don't grasp! surrender! arg!).

The apartment analogy might be decent.

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12 years 4 months ago #4202 by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Attempt to explain an insight
However, but, therefore, and --

I think it is safe to say that sustained, continuous, wide open awareness with sufficient momentum will ALWAYS create some kind of insight.

Now, whether or not one achieves just the right amount of sustained, continuous, wide open awareness with sufficient momentum is a matter of conditions, luck, grace, etc. and cannot be duplicated at will (though with practice the chances of grace increase I think).

And, whether or not such an insight will be a "game changer" or just a furniture mover will depend on all the conditions as well.

If I am there, ready, open, as something appears within or without and then just as ready and open for my reaction to it and then the next and the next and the next things that happen -- life can be transformed continuously.

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12 years 4 months ago #4203 by Kate Gowen



Well, speaking strictly for myself, I'd be kinda embarrassed to post: OMG! I'M AN EFFEN IDIOT! THIS IS WHAT MY TEACHER MEANT!
Lately, this is the lather-rinse-repeat cycle of insight.


-kategowen


Mulling this over a bit, I discover something substantive in the joke, after all: I'm thinking I've had 2 sorts of insights-- the ones that presented some sort of cognitive shift, and that encouraged me to spout off; more recently, the sort that 'makes the Baby Jesus shut my mouth and open my heart'-- as the hippie generation used to like to say. In this kind, I discover a tender and amused fraternity with fellow idiots everywhere. No praise, no blame, for all us Bozos on the bus.

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