Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Faith religion science and spirituality

Faith religion science and spirituality 13 Jan 2012 19:05 #5009

I'm almost obsessed these days with the ideas of both faith and relativity.

It occurred to me recently (and this is not original to me for sure) that while I lack faith in the tenants of the major religions, I actually have a very strong faith in math and science. Basic math and geometry seem real and true to me and scientific experiments based upon measured observation seem real and true to me as well.

Now, I believe that the earth and other planets revolve around the sun and that the moon revolves around the earth and that the earth is round. I believe this even though what I observe is flatness and what appears to be the sun moving across the sky. So, I've never seen the truth I have so much faith in. And, I also have faith that if I was as astute and as good a scientist as Galileo and others that I could observe things in such a way that my faith would be based upon actual observed fact. But, in the meantime, I just believe, with complete faith.

And that is just one example. Most scientific facts that I read about, I just believe are true. Now, I realize that much science is still theory and that many theories are later dis-proven, so there is an element of openness to the idea that some of what I hear and read from scientists may be found to be not quite true. Some.

And, I realize that my scientists must have certain credentials. They need to have gone through the rigorous university system and their experiments/theories must be held to strict rules of testing and retesting and pass the tests of peer reviews, etc. I find that I have faith that this system basically works (not 100 percent but basically). If I read or hear about ideas from scientists or thinkers outside of that system I doubt them completely and see their ideas as basic fictions unsupported by evidence and thus, while possible, completely suspect and not something I could ever have faith in.

So what's my point? Shoot

Well, I also have faith that in certain things because they are true FOR ME from experience -- though I find that this faith is much weaker. I have a pretty strong but not complete faith that open awareness can lead to the happier life of equanimity -- because I've experienced this again and again and again.

I think I lot of my contemporary peers also share my faith in science and that is why we are often so attracted to bring scientific truths into our discussions of truth and practice and why many of us are fascinated by any experiment that is concerned with the effects of meditation and/or spiritual "growth" on the body.

Sorry if this is just rambling without a clear point, Maybe more clarity will come to me and I can add to this. It's all just kind of swirling right now.
  • Dharma Comarade
  • Dharma Comarade's Avatar
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 13 Jan 2012 19:39 #5010

I have less faith in science than I used to. Its limitations are not as widely known as they should be, for one thing. And, I don't believe for a second that science and religion are necessarily in opposition to one another, assuming the religion is not fundamentally struck in a position of faith or belief that requires it to deny scientific claims. That's one reason I'm drawn o Buddhism.

So... yeah. There's that.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 13 Jan 2012 19:52 #5011


I have less faith in science than I used to. Its limitations are not as widely known as they should be, for one thing. And, I don't believe for a second that science and religion are necessarily in opposition to one another, assuming the religion is not fundamentally struck in a position of faith or belief that requires it to deny scientific claims. That's one reason I'm drawn o Buddhism.So... yeah. There's that.

-cmarti

Yes, me too, basically.
Somehow I want to bring "relatively" into my mass of thoughts and words and am working on that.
  • Dharma Comarade
  • Dharma Comarade's Avatar
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 13 Jan 2012 19:55 #5012

Relativity like the Einstein variety? Or relativity as opposed to absolutism?
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 13 Jan 2012 20:11 #5013

Relativity in that things look different depending on who is looking at from what vantage point.

Here is something I wrote recently:

Light is a faker, creeping across the sky. Morning an illusion just like you and I.


Meaning, in one sense, that "morning" only exists to certain watchers at certain times, but it is all just light shinning off of the sun.
  • Dharma Comarade
  • Dharma Comarade's Avatar
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 14 Jan 2012 00:03 #5014

And that it seems like "reality" is so fluid and depends completely upon who or what is looking at something and when and that that "reality" in a way disappears completely when viewed by a different entity at a different time.

This becomes true then of who we are and how we look and seem and feel and act based not only upon who or what is looking but upon just what prism each of us happens to be looking at ourselves through at a given moment -- which basically renders each of us, of course, an illusion in a certain relative sense.

And, like I kind of talked about in a different thread, vipassana and/or other awareness practices can show us this so completely that rather than getting freaked out and feeling out of control we can experience freedom from the pain and suffering and ignorance that is caused by thinking we are fixed.

I think this is somehow related to either special or general relativity in physics (Einstein?) but I am totally unsophisticated in this subject and I think it has something to do with measurements changing based upon the speed at which the measured thing and thing doing the measurijng are travelling in relationship to each other??????
  • Dharma Comarade
  • Dharma Comarade's Avatar
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 14 Jan 2012 00:15 #5015

Sounds like New Age stuff to me ;-)
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 14 Jan 2012 00:28 #5016


Sounds like New Age stuff to me ;-)

-cmarti

Was that serious?
  • Dharma Comarade
  • Dharma Comarade's Avatar
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 14 Jan 2012 12:08 #5017

Just throwing this in the ring: whether you believe the earth revolves around the sun or you believe the sun revolves around the earth, the dawn still looks the same.

A pointer my teacher once gave me.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 14 Jan 2012 12:45 #5018

You know, as someone that deals with scientists all week long, I'll say this: there are "stable" scientific ideas and "frontier" scientific ideas. The former are the ones that one can simply have faith in. The latter are completely up for grabs.
Most of the non-scientist public never sees the chaos of all the work on the frontier -- if they only saw that side of things, they would lose their faith in science. But if they say both frontier and stable sides, they would have exactly the right amount of faith in science.
I think about science and authority a lot. Somedays I think the various fields of science have their origins in needing to provide a way of validating the various forms of authority. Primitive authority is very broad, modern authority seems to be very narrow.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 14 Jan 2012 17:42 #5019

"Was that serious?"

Did you see the smiley after I posted it? It was a joke, Mike.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 14 Jan 2012 17:48 #5020

My father was a scientist and I spent my childhood, from about 5 years old until I was about 12, around my daad and his pals a lot of the time. I had a huge amount of faith in science because what they said always seemed to be right, but what they were doing was making rockets for the space program, so they weren't at the edge of scientific knowledge - their work was more like engineering. Then I went to grad school and ended up in study groups with physicists from Fermilab and Argonne National Laboratory near Chicago, and talking to them about what they were working on (cutting edge stuff) made me realize that science is not about facts but about trying constantly to validate theory yet never being able to stake a FINAL claim. Intuition matters a lot. Luck in experimentation matters a lot. Experimental design matters a lot.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 14 Jan 2012 22:12 #5021


You know, as someone that deals with scientists all week long, I'll say this: there are "stable" scientific ideas and "frontier" scientific ideas. The former are the ones that one can simply have faith in. The latter are completely up for grabs. Most of the non-scientist public never sees the chaos of all the work on the frontier -- if they only saw that side of things, they would lose their faith in science. But if they say both frontier and stable sides, they would have exactly the right amount of faith in science.I think about science and authority a lot. Somedays I think the various fields of science have their origins in needing to provide a way of validating the various forms of authority. Primitive authority is very broad, modern authority seems to be very narrow.

-shargrol

I don't know about that "losing faith" part. Frontier work is, necessarily, messy and edgy. But I think it is important to think about science as a process, rather than as a thing. As Chris points out, there is a lot of luck, intuition, and no lack of dead ends. But the process ensures that the marker is continually being moved in the right direction, more or less.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 14 Jan 2012 23:57 #5022

Exactly. Wonderfully, beautifully messy.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 15 Jan 2012 01:32 #5023

"Its limitations are not as widely known as they should be, for one thing." - Chris

What do you see as its limitations, Chris?
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Faith religion science and spirituality 15 Jan 2012 17:38 #5024

Scientists are human beings.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Time to create page: 0.191 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum