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every3rdthought wrote: ...And also seeing that my whole range of possibilities had been limited by that self-identity, so I'm now in a place where lots of things that in the pasty would have had 'failure' stamped all over them if I'd ended up doing them now look like exciting, interesting life options. And this stuff is good I think because it simultaneously loosens one's own clinging to a particular ego-identity (which cunningly presents as 'follow your dreams') but also relates to being less judgemental of the choices others have made and places they've ended up.
That ^^ is worth its weight in gold.
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+1
and it reminds me of a favorite bit of William Carlos Williams--
The Descent
The descent beckons
as the ascent beckoned.
Memory is a kind
of accomplishment,
a sort of renewal
even
an initiation, since the spaces it opens are new places
inhabited by hordes
heretofore unrealized,
of new kinds—
since their movements
are toward new objectives
(even though formerly they were abandoned).
No defeat is made up entirely of defeat—since
the world it opens is always a place
formerly
unsuspected. A
world lost,
a world unsuspected,
beckons to new places...
That teaching of his has been a beacon in the dark for me over the decades.
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I have always been a creative slacker type at heart and I can say that my own journey to awakening has been best described by deepening, total commitment to this creative slacker. For me, creativity was about genuine, pure thirst for investigating Truth. Slackness was about a pure devotion to peace and pleasure, the natural state of lifeforms on this earth. Each of these facets has a shadow side - for the creativity, my shadow is narcissism, for the slacker side, the shadow side is carelessness.
I would say post awakening, the bright side of these 2 things is less hindered and starts to burn even brighter, and the shadow side is steadily becoming more illuminated. So for example my ideas of my creative self image seem less important which is allowing the work I do to become more interesting and valuable, but definitely less 'cool'
I think with anyone, it will be the same - their traits, core drivers, stay the same, but the light and dark sides will shift. I also think that in this sort of development work it is really important to know and be in a good relationship with one's core sort of drivers or traits. So it seems sort of obvious and twee, but I think that the awakening process just starts to reveal everyone's pure personality traits.
The one thing I worry most about in this game is whether I will become much more distant from my family (mum and brother). We are all quite different and the energy of the family I find quite argumentative and bickery (difficult past). Before awakening, hanging round them was painful, I had lots of psychological ideas of why things weren't right or good, which hurt. Now, hanging round them is still painful, but with less psychological baggage, more just painful in the same way that a loud dischordant music is painful. And the pain is also based in futility, knowing that this life is short, too short to spend in smalltalk or bickering, and if there seems to be not much I can do to change this, then perhaps my time is best spent elsewhere. Lots of interesting dynamics in there. Who knows what will happen in the future.
sorry to go on a bit. I think I just saw the posts and felt like expressing stuff. Hope the words are of some value to someone.
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Sadalsuud wrote: The one thing I worry most about in this game is whether I will become much more distant from my family (mum and brother). We are all quite different and the energy of the family I find quite argumentative and bickery (difficult past)
I wonder if you could say more about what you mean by 'distant'? One of the things I've realized is that certain members of my family aren't going to change regardless of how frequently or intensely I try to make them change. And so I no longer engage with them by trying to, for example, persuade one person to stop spending money with reckless abandon or another to stop being so judgmental and harsh. Diving into arguments on such visceral stuff feels like engagement. There's a dramatic charge that comes from the argumentation. It's easy to get addicted to this drama. If you refuse to 'go there,' are you actually distancing yourself from this other person, or just being wise? Is it possible to engage with people in the moment in a way that doesn't involve you trying to change them? How to do that when you know that the other party, not being interested in dharma practice or self-reflection, is likely to continue doing and saying unskillful and unhelpful things?
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Thank you!
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Sorry I just re-read my post and I guess the word awakening was thrown around a bit brashly. I have been practicing various types of meditation for about 3 years, spending a lot of time in retreat-like conditions (being a surf bum amongst other things). At the start of this summer I found Daniel Ingram's book MCTB, which imbued me with faith and drive, and I did what they call 4th Path - MCTB 4th path - (which I definitely do NOT consider to be the same as traditional Theravada 4th path, an arahat or anything like that). So I would say, a bit awake, at the start of a journey.
I posted on DhO under the same name with bits about journeys and path.
Thanks for the welcome and look forward to reading and contributing.
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Thank you!
EDIT: I read your posts and the replies over on DhO. Some of those folks were a bit dubious about your claims. Since you haven't posted enough here I think we can safely reserve judgment. I would also encourage you not to run around making these claims on a bunch of different message boards. I'd wait a while before putting that kind of stake in the ground. Maybe six months? A year? You might also want to talk to a very seasoned pragmatic dharma teacher. We can recommend a few for you if you're interested.
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My apologies, as I did not think claiming MCTB 4th would be such a big deal here, otherwise I would have been much more sensitive about it. I thought people would be just like, "meh ok, let's see what this new guy says".
Regarding MCTB 4th path. For some it is a long endeavour. I spent many months here and there in retreat-like conditions and made my spiritual quest the centrepoint of my life.
But other people totally wake up from half an hour of directing pointing, having hardly meditated!
However long you believe it will take you, that's how long it will take you. Not quite that simple, but this belief system is a huge factor. This is why I think it's *sometimes* good to normalise awakening a bit. If everyone believes that the quickest way to awakening must take 7 years of doing lots of 3 months retreats of 4am-10pm constant noting, then this will hold back the global consensus. It is the global and local consensus that make awakening possible. If you practiced all the time with 3-4 people who had all used a bunch of different tools to awaken in a few months, what would that do for your practice? If one day non-duality is studied academically in high school and every school has an awakened chaplain, what would that do for how quickly people started getting it?
Regarding "claiming". Personally I see a lot of value in relating my experience, and asking others if it matches/holds up to what I think it is. I think this is actually one of the primary functions of web forums like this! When I first "claimed" MCTB 4th path, about 4 months after picking up MCTB, it was pointed out to me very helpfully that there were some elements missing, and I was able to go and practice those elements. If I had followed advice of 'not claiming' I would have waited another 6 months, scrabbling around in the dark - that seemed ludicrous. As it was, the forum pointed me exactly toward how to develop, instantly, and now those great pointers that were given to me are out there for someone else who has a similar experience. I am happy to deal with the fallout of embarrassment if my 'claims' do not hold out.
I agree there is a fine emotional stance line between claiming and just relating one's experience in a constructive way. I see how my posts on this forum may seem brash, but they were not intended that way. I again apologise for this.
Hoping we can get over whether I have achieved 4th path or not and talk about interesting things like how this sort of thing impacts lives. Or I am happy to answer any questions about why I think I have done 4th path, if that's what people want. I am also sorry that this thread has been a bit hijacked.
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Sadalsuud wrote: Or I am happy to answer any questions about why I think I have done 4th path, if that's what people want.
I think that is what Chris is asking for.
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Russell is correct. That is indeed what I'm asking for. It would be very nice, Sadalsuud, for you to post a phenomenological explanation of your paths, which in a perfect world would include a description of your evolution from first through fourth. There are quite a number of 4th path-ers here who can read that and relate, or not, depending on their experience. I think you can understand that just popping up one day and saying, "I'm fourth path!" is not enough for some of us. It shouldn't be. It devalues those of us who have posted about our own paths for years, explaining what happened at all the states and stages, and sharing openly with others on this and the old KFD forum. We expect and deserve more detail, more description, more information you about your history and your practice vector.
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Chris Marti wrote: Sadalsuud -- apology accepted.
Russell is correct. That is indeed what I'm asking for. It would be very nice, Sadalsuud, for you to post a phenomenological explanation of your paths, which in a perfect world would include a description of your evolution from first through fourth. There are quite a number of 4th path-ers here who can read that and relate, or not, depending on their experience. I think you can understand that just popping up one day and saying, "I'm fourth path!" is not enough for some of us. It shouldn't be. It devalues those of us who have posted about our own paths for years, explaining what happened at all the states and stages, and sharing openly with others on this and the old KFD forum. We expect and deserve more detail, more description, more information you about your history and your practice vector.
May I suggest that you start up a practice thread so that
-- tomo
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