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TOPIC: dropouts vs. cessations

dropouts vs. cessations 23 Jul 2015 09:08 #99763

This is implied by the definable qualities of that spot and certain subtle sensations implying space. That there is some space around space, some transcendent super-space around the universe that we may try to rest in or imagine is here. This is implied by sensations with definable qualities. That there is some void-like potential that creates all of this and to which all of this returns. This is implied by sensations with specific and definable qualities.


Interesting. This is what I was discussing with a few folks over on DhO recently. The notion that there is some void from which/to which all phenomena arise and pass is a concept that we develop and hold on to. This, too, is eventually seen through and then, as shargrol so aptly put it, experience is just experience.
Last Edit: 23 Jul 2015 09:09 by Chris Marti.
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dropouts vs. cessations 23 Jul 2015 12:32 #99766

shargrol wrote:
Jake St. Onge wrote:
@ Shargrol: Right, but what precipitates a 'nondual' fruition-- a glimpse of rigpa or whatever-- is often (for me anyhow) an acute awareness of that tension inherent in dualism. This is something Namkhai Norbu talks about, investigating dualistic tension, relaxing dualistic tension (tension inherent in believing in an observer-observed duality). So what's the difference in set up ;) ?

My guess is that pretty much every "state" of mind is a form of a "natural protection" action by the mind. Ignorances, cessations, and even rigpa itself. The long term trend is less and less dualistic tension, a progression from ignorances to cessations and then to glimpse of rigpa as a state, then rigpa as a non-state.
Also to be clear-- [...] The word 'awareness' has lots of connotations but many of them include a directionality (aware-of) which is why I used the word 'awakeness' to describe what I intuitively suspect is 'in' a cessation, because it doesn't have that directional connotation as much[...].

I have to admit I'm confused by the quote above...so that probably means I'm missing what you feel is important to point out. .

I was responding to this: "Interesting. I find it hard to call any experience with awareness still in it a cessation" which I took to be a response to what I wrote in the post immediately prior-- but maybe you were speaking more generally.

When you wrote "My guess is that pretty much every "state" of mind is a form of a "natural protection" action by the mind. Ignorances, cessations, and even rigpa itself. The long term trend is less and less dualistic tension, a progression from ignorances to cessations and then to glimpse of rigpa as a state, then rigpa as a non-state. "

I don't understand what the first sentence of the quote means, but it sounds intriguing. In the second part I understand you to be constructing a sort of abbreviated insight map of the path? Is that accurate? If so, I submit that the order is not necessarily linear-- that is part of what I was expressing initially-- in my experience, glimpses of 'rigpa' preceded any formal practice and far preceded any cessations. Conceptual, after the fact attempts to understand the significance of those glimpses have definitely shifted from early interpretations that 'rigpa' is a special state, or a source from which states emerge/to which they return, etc. to a more clear sense that it is the nature of states in general in some sense. I'm not sure that experiencing cessations had anything directly to do with these shifting views except in the general sense that somehow cessation seems to debug mind of its implicit dualistic assumptions in some sense.
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dropouts vs. cessations 23 Jul 2015 12:39 #99767

Chris Marti wrote:
Yes, Jake, I have had that experience. My observation of that experience is that there is still a subject/object duality, though very subtle. [...]

Interesting; that certainly is one popular view/interpretation/experience which is prominent in the records of contemplatives. I don't think we'll resolve the question of whether or not experience as such is by definition dualistic and dukkha here. For what it's worth in my experience, both possibilities seem related to view-- you get what you expect, in a sense. That in itself is suggestive. Advanced contemplatives of different traditions report opposite experiences and conclusions in this regard and I am hesitant to suggest that either are more right than the other, perhaps because I seem able to experience it either way.

It seems that some traditions say, sometimes on a very implicit level, sometimes spelling it out doctrinally, that there is something fundamentally dualistic and suffering about experience/manifestation. Other traditions suggest, again implicitly or explicitly, that manifestation/experience is naturally pure and complete and that suffering and duality are ever-present possibilities that we habitually add to experience.
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dropouts vs. cessations 23 Jul 2015 13:42 #99768

It seems that some traditions say, sometimes on a very implicit level, sometimes spelling it out doctrinally, that there is something fundamentally dualistic and suffering about experience/manifestation. Other traditions suggest, again implicitly or explicitly, that manifestation/experience is naturally pure and complete and that suffering and duality are ever-present possibilities that we habitually add to experience.

Well, yeah. I can tell you that my personal journey, like yours, was to experience "rigpa" or what at the time my Zen friend Mike LaTorra called "kensho" quite some time before I ever had my first true cessation. I'm not smart enough to know the why of any of this. All I can say is that it took me a long time and a lot of detailed observation to realize what was concept and what was really experience (perception). My best guess based on observation and my personal practice is that one can experience the universe in both of the modes you describe above, and the resulting experience, the perception, depends on which mode you chose to view it from.
Last Edit: 23 Jul 2015 13:43 by Chris Marti.
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dropouts vs. cessations 23 Jul 2015 13:48 #99769

Agreed, the perception is like the output of the view adopted. Perhaps part of 'awakening' could be said to be, becoming aware of the optionality of these views, rather than being uncritically immersed in the resultant perceptions
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dropouts vs. cessations 23 Jul 2015 13:56 #99770

Perhaps part of 'awakening' could be said to be, becoming aware of the optionality of these views, rather than being uncritically immersed in the resultant perceptions

That's an integral part of being fully awake, IMHO. The previous steps all work to eventually get us here, where all that we have is perception, no hierarchies, no privilege, nothing but just what happens, all on a level playing field. I know I went through many phases - THIS is right, no THAT is right, no.... and so on. Well. it turns out they're all correct but dependent on view :cheer:
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The following user(s) said Thank You: Jake St. Onge

dropouts vs. cessations 23 Jul 2015 14:03 #99771

lol :)
Yeah. And then there is the question of how life sorts itself out in the light of that 'evening-out' of experience. In some sense, I would say, there is a paradoxical deepening of the dimensionality of life that comes with awakeness, a clarification of preferences, and of what is authentic for this bodymind. It seems easy to become stuck, so to speak, in the non-hierarchy, and some folks find it difficult to re-discover motivation, ethics, etc. at that point in the process. Goes to show that 'awakening' doesn't solve all problems by any means; in a sense, it brings up a different whole set of challenges.
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dropouts vs. cessations 23 Jul 2015 14:40 #99772

One more comment -- a sort of final observation, if you will:

This malleability of perception is evidence for the power of the mind. It becomes clear that we really do create our reality, which is simply a different way of saying what we just agreed upon.
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dropouts vs. cessations 19 Mar 2017 21:20 #106347

What about Culadasa's definition of a PCE cessation—does this fit in with the "dropout" experience?

If the sub-minds are receptive but there’s nothing to receive, can a cessation event be consciously recalled afterward? It all depends on the nature of the shared intention before the cessation occurred. If the intention of all the tuned in sub-minds was to observe objects of consciousness, as with popular “noting” practices, all that’s subsequently recalled is an absence, a gap. After all, if every object of consciousness ceases, and there’s no intention for the sub-minds to observe anything else, then nothing gets imprinted in memory. However, if the intention was to be metacognitively aware of the state and activities of the mind, we would remember having been fully conscious, but not conscious of anything. We would recall having a pure consciousness experience (PCE), or an experience of consciousness without an object (CWO).

I have also experienced these "dropouts," as described in this thread, and have talked to other yogis who have similar descriptions. A few of them (myself included) lean toward Culadasa's "PCE" definition as the explanation for these cessation-like drop- or dip-outs.

That, or perhaps they're varying degrees of "sub-minds" going quiet or offline—a degree or amount that falls short of the threshold required for "complete" cessation. Thus, the dropouts are "near-cessations" or "incomplete cessations" so to speak. (Those obviously being problematic terms; cessation, by definition, means a complete end.)
Last Edit: 19 Mar 2017 21:25 by Chris O..
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dropouts vs. cessations 20 Mar 2017 06:54 #106348

How does Culadasa speak about path moments?
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