What is going on here?

Ona, I like the feedback loop examples you provided. They are quite accurate.

The big take away, I think, is noticing that the loop can be interrupted at any stage. There's no point-of-no-return. No matter where we find ourselves in the cycle, there's a chance to bring attention to experience in a way that will lead to better outcomes in the future. Over time, we may learn to catch the cycle much faster and earlier on. This is usually the case. But sometimes we don't catch it, and it's really fast! - so there's no shame in catching it later. There is always an opportunity to step in with applied attention, which is just the kind of skillful intention one needs to dismantle the cycle.

Agree, Jackson. (Those are from a case study of a meditator after 8 months of practice, btw)

"Yes, and I think body sensations are a very helpful starting point for people not yet well into their practice, because it is simple and it does help cut through the content/story spin. Sometimes it's useful to be pragmatic about practice advise, even if that means leaving aside details." -Ona

Not to get all huggy again, but YES!

I think this is the fist important insight of practice; that the content spin can be cut-through. This is the "mind and body" stage in Mahasi vipassana. It's not just seeing that thoughts are different from gross form, but that both are "object" rather than "subject." That does some funky things to one's state of consciousness the first few times around.

"This is just MHO as always, but until the 3 characteristics are seen through in a deep way all the talk about body sensations and paying attention to them will only go so far. Being aware of our sensations at any level is actually the path we take to the deep realization of the 3 C's, at least as I see it. If a person does not have real time insight into "what's happening" in every moment, if nothing else at minimum being able to tune that in at will, then the rest is quite nice but it only goes to the level of mindfulness practice, not awakening practice." -Chris

I agree.

I think what I was trying to say was that mindfulness of body is necessary for insight, but not sufficient. The same way that water is necessary for human life, but not sufficient - we need food, too.

Would you agree?

Just to loop the 3 characteristic back to the example. One of the shocking thing you can realize is that situation is TOTALLY gone. Wow!

"The interesting thing to me is that any
emotion is seen by contrast. Positive emotions (like joy) are wildly
different than depression..."

I've developed a theory that we are blinded by a bias toward contrast, opposition, and discontinuity-- the logic of the excluded middle is built into our language to the degree that it takes some retraining to even consider that there is a continuum of anything we can experience, and there is no opposition inherent in difference. And what is 'good' about a thing, a reaction, an emotion, is its appropriateness to the given circumstance. Joy at the death of a parent is likely to be less appropriate than grief and depression. Depression upon achieving one's heart's desire is an incentive to look further into the situation and what is truly to be desired. I guess this is bringing the 'theory of relativity' on home to personal life.

It's possible that the relentless scanning for discontinuities and overreacting to them is the result of having been a relatively fragile species for most of our history, on the lookout for bigger, better-armed predators. If we can grow into a attitude of curiosity and interest toward the full spectrum of what is possible [short of actual physical harm, of course] it opens out our world in an amazing way. There is a great deal of our lives that we don't actually experience-- we grab at or shove away what we assume know[/b]'] it is.

Something curious happened to me awhile back: I was in the position of having to 'just do it' and move past my performance anxiety. It was more-or-less the failure I'd expected-- except for one thing: when my wobbly voice cracked as I sang my little song, the audience started singing with me. Almost as if they were delighted to be called upon; it was a lovely little moment of generosity, about which no one felt the need to say anything.

The performance anxiety theme (and Kate's story) remind me of something related. When I was a kid I played the violin. I was also very shy. One of the obligations as a student in the school music program was to perform at recitals and at the regional competitions. I was so anxious about these performances that for years after the act of putting on stockings and a skirt brought up anxiety. I also recall that when I went to see other people perform (such as being taken to concerts, the ballet, etc.) I would have such nerves on their behalf, always afraid they were going to mess up or fall and hardly enjoying the performance.

I gradually lost that nervousness about performance. I don't recall any particular practice or strategy that changed things. Though I did have to start teaching at a point and that was a sort of practice - three days a week standing in front of thirty students trying to get them to answer questions and participate in discussion. Perhaps their clumsiness and shyness made me realize I wasn't *that* bad off and gave me confidence. When towards the end of the semester I had to lecture to the whole hall of 300 students (my first time ever speaking to a group that large) I totally enjoyed it. I had my whole talk written up and it was on a subject I was very enthusiastic about and knew well, and I was totally surprised that the same adrenaline that used to be associated with anxiety this time just gave me a sort of invigorated buzz.

I love these stories!

My public speaking realization was people want to feel your body as they watch you, so I try to embody what they want to feel: joy in being able to talk to others, interest in the subject, and openness to any new idea. It makes a huge difference to take the orientation of service, as opposed to doing something "to" them. And people woulds rather see someone honestly "failing" rather than shmoozing and covering up, just being honest is probably the biggest thing.

there is no opposition inherent in difference



-kategowen

That's it. One taste, this does not collide with that. (I'm not there, but still I can sense what home feels like.)

I love these stories!
My public speaking realization was people want to feel your body as they watch you, so I try to embody what they want to feel: joy in being able to talk to others, interest in the subject, and openness to any new idea.



-shargrol

That's an interesting way to look at it. The other is perhaps more animal. When we see someone else acting frightened we unconsciously wonder where the danger is and whether we are also in danger. This is in many ways a very sensible reaction! How we release that tension (with empathy, anger, frustration, kindness, etc) depends on the evaluation of the danger, our self-awareness, our past experiences, our upbringing and so on.

That film I watched the other night (Flight from Death, mentioned in another thread) spent a good deal of time on this: how people react to their own fear being triggered when they see potential danger, albeit it focused on more extreme examples, such as seeing the danger of bodily harm in war, illness, etc.

Something I learned a lot about while training horses, as they are very sensitive to the body language of other horses, and humans as well. People are often very unaware of how much their own tension, fussing, and anticipation that the horse is going to be skittish actually makes the horse very unsettled and worried. People often use a kind of tentative nervous fussing and cooing to try to soothe a nervous horse, and this makes it even more nervous. Acting very relaxed and confident gives the horse confidence that there is no danger and helps it settles down. It takes some self-training to be aware of how you are behaving and put on the act of calm confidence even when you are actually nervous.

Which leads to one more thought about performance anxiety, which relates to Shargrol's post a few back: most of the time when you are doing a presentation of some kind the purpose is to share info you researched with others who want to know about it (classmates, colleagues, whatever). So you are there to give them some new info that might be helpful to them, to show them some ideas they might not know, etc. And they are there (enrolled in the class, working in the field) because that sort of thing is interesting and relevant to them. So one can remind oneself it isn't about you so much as about others - you are giving something, sharing something, helping other people. Think about the attitude you might take helping a friend with their homework, or helping someone use an ATM who has difficulty reading or pushing buttons. It's just a different take on the dynamic between speaker and audience.