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TOPIC: because there is indeed a final basic experience

because there is indeed a final basic experience 16 May 2016 06:19 #103390

interesting... it seems like this could be controversial, but maybe not.

www.lionsroar.com/discover-your-innermost-awareness/



Discover Your Innermost Awareness

BY THE DALAI LAMA| MAY 11, 2016

In his teaching on the essence of Dzogchen, the Dalai Lama describes the shock that naturally accompanies an experience of innermost awareness, which is actually the basis of all reality.

I have great interest in the statement by many wise persons in all the orders of Tibetan Buddhism that their systems come down to the same final principle, and I feel that this is what I should and must explain. Such an exploration may be controversial, but in any case, these great scholar–yogis say that all these systems come down to the same final basic insight, the same principle, because there is indeed a final basic experience on which they all alight. There is no way they would say this just to be polite.

In texts we inherited from India, the basic principle is sometimes called the “fundamental innate mind of clear light” or the “fundamental innate wisdom of clear light,” these two terms having the same meaning. In other texts, it is called the “space-diamond pervading space,” while in yet others it is called the “jewel mind,” as, for example, when it is said, “Separate from the jewel mind, there is no buddha and no sentient being.”

Then, in Tibet, in some texts, it is called “ordinary consciousness” and “innermost awareness.” These terms are used in the context of speaking about freedom from thought, which is psychologically and experientially described as “self-release,” “naked release,” and “unimpeded penetration.” The innermost awareness is said to be the basis of the appearance of all of the round of suffering (cyclic existence) and also the basis of liberation (nirvana). Everything, without exception, is complete in the continuum of innermost awareness. It is even said to be naturally arisen, since it has always been and always will be.

All of the phenomena of cyclic existence and nirvana are, when you come down to it, not newly produced by causes and conditions but integrally complete within the nature of primordial, naturally arisen innermost awareness; everything is contained within its sphere, within its scope. On the low end, the basis of the dawning of all of the phenomena of the world of suffering is this diamond mind of clear light; on the high end, the basis of the dawning of all the pure phenomena of liberation is just this innermost awareness, also called the diamond mind of clear light.

This is a topic well worth exploring for the sake of furthering our inner peace by opening our minds beyond our usual stream of thoughts. We should look into this with the aim of creating more peace with our neighbors and throughout our world.

Innermost Awareness Pervades Every Type of Consciousness

No matter what kind of consciousness we might consider, the clear light of innermost awareness pervades it. Ice, even when it is solid and very hard, does not pass beyond the nature of water. In the same way, no matter how gross, tough, or coarse conceptions might be, the place from which they dawn and the place into which they vanish when we no longer think about them does not pass beyond innermost awareness.

Conceptual awareness appears from within the sphere of innermost awareness and finally dissolves into the sphere of innermost awareness. Since this is the case, as the early twentieth-century scholar–yogi of the Old Translation (Nyingma) School Dodrubchen Jigme Tenpe Nyima says, just as oil pervades the entirety of sesame seeds, so clear light pervades all consciousness. He concludes that therefore even at the time of the manifestation of the coarser levels of mind—both during thinking and during the operation of the sensory consciousnesses associated with the eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body—it is possible to identify, through the force of a lama or guru’s empowering blessings and quintessential instructions, a subtle feature of clear light that pervades each of these consciousnesses.

Practicing the Path Right Now

How can we take innermost awareness into the spiritual path right now? It is through being introduced to and identifying—in experience—the clear light that pervades all types of consciousnesses and one-pointedly meditating on this, sustaining attention to it within nonthought, nonconceptualization.

Then, as the clear light becomes more and more profound, the types of coarse thoughts diminish more and more. This is why this practice is called “the essential path through knowledge of which all states are released.” Coming to know this single innermost awareness in our own experience, we are liberated from all sorts of tense situations.

To identify innermost awareness, the most difficult part is to make the distinction between mind (sems) and innermost awareness (rig pa). It is easy to talk about this difference, to say, “Innermost awareness has never been infected by mistake, whereas mind is under the influence of conceptualization and polluted with mistaken thought.” This is easy to say, but in terms of actual experience in our own mental continuum, it is very difficult. Dodrubchen said that although we might fancy that we are meditating on innermost awareness, there is a danger that we are actually, in fact, merely maintaining concentration on the clear and cognitive nature of a more superficial mind, and so we need to take care. It is helpful to do the latter, but it is not so profound.

The Innate Mind of Clear Light

All Tibetan systems, in their final view, emphasize the fundamental innate mind of clear light. In terms of the center of these systems, all of the phenomena of cyclic existence and nirvana are the sport, the effulgence, of the fundamental innate clear light. Hence, the root, and foundation, of all of that is within the scope of cyclic existence and nirvana is the fundamental clear light.

This being so, when practicing the spiritual path, there is nothing else needed to purify these impure appearances—which themselves dawn from within the context of innermost awareness or clear light—than to turn the fundamental innate mind of clear light itself into that through which you practice the spiritual path. Manifesting the fruit of practicing the path, the fundamental innate mind of clear light itself, when separated from all obstructive defilements, is the resultant omniscience of buddhahood, a state from which the greatest benefit to others can be effected.

Introducing Innermost Awareness

I will now explain the first section of the text Three Keys Penetrating the Core, from the mind of the great adept Dza Patrul Jigme Chokyi Wangpo (1808–87). Patrul Rinpoche’s teaching, and thus his poem, is organized around three keys for uncovering innermost awareness, the Great Completeness. The essential meaning of how to place yourself in the core of reality is cast into three sets of quintessential teachings for the sake of severing the life, so to speak, of self-ruinous mistake. Here, I will discuss the first key:

The view, the multitudinous expanse,
Is cast in practical essentials of three keys.

I.
First set your own mind in a relaxed state,
Not emitting, not withdrawing, without conceptuality.
In this relaxed state of total absorption,
Suddenly shout PAT, striking your awareness,
Strong, intense, short. E MA HO!
Not any thing, astounding.
Astounding, unimpeded penetration.
Unimpeded penetration, inexpressible.
Identify innermost awareness of the truth body.
Its entity is identified within yourself—the first essential.



I will try to provide a little commentary.

Relax

The initial introduction to the view of naturally arisen innermost awareness cannot be made while you are involved in constantly generating many conceptions, such as thinking about good and bad and the like. For instance, it is difficult to identify somebody you don’t know well in a huge crowd, but once you have been introduced to a person and come to know him or her, it is easy to identify the person even in the midst of a big crowd. Similarly, even though innermost awareness pervades every moment of consciousness, including every single thought, it is not possible to bring out innermost awareness in its nakedness without being introduced to it first, because it is bound and obscured by conceptual thinking. However, after you have identified it, you can see it even in the midst of a multitude of thoughts.

Therefore, without making any adjustments to your mind, such as by conceptually working at analysis, leave, among the various phenomena of the world, whatever appears to your mind—people, buildings, mountains, your work, your friends, your problems, and the like—as just an appearance, and do not get involved and polluted with identifying it and thinking, “This is such-and-such.” Since a state of mere appearance and mere awareness needs to be sustained, do as the author of the poem says and “first set your own mind in a relaxed state,” not allowing the busy state of a multitude of thoughts.

Stop Thinking for A While

Naturally arisen innermost awareness naturally exists within you; it is naturally there, not newly generated or constructed by superficial conditions. Rather, it is original wisdom, naturally flowing awareness whose continuum is itself fundamental, uncontrived. For it to become evident to you now, do not allow new superficially fabricated conceptions to develop. Do not emit new thoughts, and even when you notice that conceptions have been produced, do not exert yourself thinking that they have to be withdrawn; just let them disappear. As the poem says, “not emitting, not withdrawing, without conceptuality.” Rather, vividly stay completely within the self-flow, the natural flow of nonconceptuality. On the spot, let go of all conceptual thinking altogether.

Shock

Still, it is not sufficient just to keep your mind from diffusing and scattering. Even if bliss, clarity, and nonconceptuality dawn in meditative experience, these interfere with being introduced to and identifying naturally arisen innermost awareness. You need to avoid even bliss, clarity, and nonconceptuality. You have to get beyond all of these.

Therefore, in this relaxed state not affected and polluted by the tightness of conceptuality, suddenly shout PAT (pronounced “pat” with the tongue curled to the top of the mouth behind the front teeth while saying the final “t”)—strong, intense, and short—for the sake of immediately clearing out any and all of the commotion of thinking It is so-and-so, It is like this, It is like that. The sudden sound of PAT will strike conceptual thinking out of your consciousness: “In this relaxed state of total absorption, suddenly shout PAT, striking your awareness, strong, intense, short. E MA HO! Not any thing, astounding.”

Old thoughts have stopped and new thoughts have not yet been produced. For example, when a boat moves quickly through water, the water is moved to the two sides with an empty place right then and there in its wake at the back of the boat.

At the point of shouting PAT, between when you are unable to think your former thoughts and before you are able to produce new conceptions, in between those two, when you cannot make conceptual distinctions, there is astonishment, clarity, vividness, mere knowing.

If you have faith and keen interest, as well as a guide’s quintessential instructions, then remaining in place of the sudden removal of thoughts will be a sense of shock that cannot be identified as anything, this or that. The clothing of thought suddenly thrown off, you will be left in a state of wonder, feeling astounded, astonished.

There are several types of shock. One is like having your eyes closed and being unable to think anything; another is a state of nonconceptuality in which the mind is free from the pollutions of the mind being either too loose or too tight. There are also others. At this juncture, the emitting and withdrawing of conceptuality has stopped to the point where you are in a state of astonishment, having lost the power to recognize objects as this or that.

With a shock, mental activity suddenly halts. For example, when a dog suddenly barks near you, you can be shocked into being unable to think anything. Here, in this practice, you are released from the varieties of thought, from the binding confines of the groups of adventitiously generated new conceptions, but still it is not as if you have fainted. Rather, the perspective of your consciousness is vividly clear.

Texts speak of making evident a state in which the usual underlying consciousness has lost its intensity and conceptual apprehension cannot get started, and thus during this interval naked innermost awareness can manifest for a period. The great Tibetan scholar Mangto Lhundrub Gyatsho cites many scriptural sources, such as:

Between earlier and later conceptions, the continuum of the clear light of innermost awareness remains unbroken.

In the space between two thoughts, there is an easy opportunity for identifying this moment of innermost awareness.

Therefore, this state of shock is not just astonishment, but also has, as Patrul Rinpoche says, “Astounding, unimpeded penetration.” The nature of this is to be known, just as it actually is, in the context of experience, and is otherwise indescribable in words, so he says, “Unimpeded penetration, inexpressible.” Though called innermost awareness of the truth body, it is inexpressible as any of the poles of being existent, nonexistent, and so forth. This innermost awareness of the truth body must be identified in experience.

Unless you can identify it, there is no way to sustain the view of the Great Completeness in meditation. This type of meditation, in which you are sustaining the experience of innermost awareness, is a case of remaining within the experience of what you are meditating on, rather than meditating on an object.

Beyond this, as is clear in Dodrubchen’s writings, if you are able to recognize all phenomena as the sport, vibration, or effervescence of this naturally arisen innermost awareness, this allows you to easily see that phenomena do not exist in and of themselves, independently, and are only set up by conceptuality. When you identify innermost awareness, also called ultimate truth, and ascertain that all the phenomena of cyclic existence and nirvana are its effulgence, then along the way you understand that all pure and impure phenomena are, as the philosophical texts say, only nominally existent. You understand that all appearing and occurring objects of knowledge are adventitious and essenceless, that although such phenomena have, from the start, not been established under their own power, they nonetheless appear to you to have their own autonomous nature, whereupon you adhere to this sense of seeming existence from their own side. You further understand that this misapprehension leads to engagement in various good and bad actions and the accumulation of those predispositions, leading to still more entanglement in cyclic existence.

To identify innermost awareness and properly sustain it in meditation, it is important to have previously reflected on from where the mind arises, where it abides, and that into which it ceases, as well as other analytical techniques. For these practices, the reasonings as they are laid out in the great texts are helpful.

If you can cause all these phenomena to appear as the vibration of innermost awareness, not deviating from the sphere of that mind, you will not come under the influence of conventional conceptions. When you identify your own basic entity yourself and directly ascertain its meaning continuously and forever in meditative equipoise, then even though acting in the world, you are enlightened.

This article is adapted from the Dalai Lama’s new book, The Heart of Meditation, translated and edited by Jeffrey Hopkins from oral teachings, published by Shambhala, 2016.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 16 May 2016 11:38 #103393

I find it fascinating that apparently highly advanced practitioners in the Tibetan traditions, who seem to have first hand experience with deep realization of empty impermanence, and an understanding of the limits of 'the witness' or other reified super-selves, nevertheless seem to agree about this Buddha-nature thing. I'm thinking of a video I saw of Namkhai Norbu when he was a lot younger talking about experiences he had along the lines pragmatic dharma would be familiar with of developing that insight into empty impermanence and yet he really emphasizes Buddha nature as beyond emptiness. Then, there are Trungpa's very detailed descriptions of the progress of insight and the resulting transformations to the experiential continuum of the practitioner along the lines of '4th path' (deep realization of no-subject) and of course he too charts deeper developments involving Buddha nature. Very intriguing and definitely against the grain in some ways of the prag dharma convention of placing practices like Dzogchen or Mahamudra around the third path territory of the MCTB maps.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 16 May 2016 13:35 #103394

All of the phenomena of cyclic existence and nirvana are, when you come down to it, not newly produced by causes and conditions but integrally complete within the nature of primordial, naturally arisen innermost awareness; everything is contained within its sphere, within its scope. On the low end, the basis of the dawning of all of the phenomena of the world of suffering is this diamond mind of clear light; on the high end, the basis of the dawning of all the pure phenomena of liberation is just this innermost awareness, also called the diamond mind of clear light.

I see nothing to be disagreed with in that quote. I wouldn't use the same language but it's clear that everything arises inside the innate capacity to experience that which arises. We can experience because we have the innate ability to experience.
Last Edit: 16 May 2016 13:36 by Chris Marti.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 16 May 2016 13:40 #103395

Very intriguing and definitely against the grain in some ways of the prag dharma convention of placing practices like Dzogchen or Mahamudra around the third path territory of the MCTB maps.


Where was that asserted? I've never heard it before.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 16 May 2016 15:02 #103396

I was hesitant about putting up this reply. My post seems to makes it appear that I know more than I do. That's not the case -- I'm pretty sure my understanding is quite limited. However, the referenced article seems to line up neatly with some things that have become apparent in my practice recently, so I'm throwing this out there. Maybe it will spark some conversation that could help my understanding.


It was an interesting coincidence to see this article posted . Over the weekend, I listened and worked through Kim Katami's 'Cutting through Samsara and entering Nirvana, Part 1/2' where he does a dharma talk and a guided meditation that works through a shouting/shock practice. The point of the practice, as both Kim and the Dalai Lama lay out, is to produce that space empty of conceptuality in which the sense of 'mere knowing' can appear to be recognized, and can sustain itself.

(I mentioned the element of shock in a transcription of a one-on-one session I had with Hokai a while back. He described the traditional approach to generating union of looking and resting into which the element of shock or surprise is introduced. . Chris also referred to Katsu in Zen in a post a little bit after mine. )

Patrul's approach is that of a single shout, while Kim works with sustained short periods of shouted chanting. I played with both, and found that I needed to already be resting with a still mind for a single shout to open the space. Kim's method combines chanting with the shouting, and it seeemed easier to produce the looking-while-resting stability that I needed. The end of the shouted chanting worked well to open the space in thinking so that knowing was prominent.

After describing the shock, the rest of the article is much more in the nature of of pith instructions. For example, there's an awful lot packed into the paragraph that starts with "Beyond [sustaining the experience of innermost awareness], as is clear in Dodrubchen’s writings, if you are able to recognize all phenomena as the sport, vibration, or effervescence of this naturally arisen innermost awareness, this allows you to easily see that phenomena do not exist in and of themselves, independently, and are only set up by conceptuality. "

The first step is identifying and then sustaining the knowing, the innermost awareness. The rest of what's needed is some understanding into the relationship between knowing and experience. Knowing appears as one side of an apparent duality, the other side of which appears as experience. The insight needed here is that knowing and experience are not really two separate things.

(Here's where things get fuzzy for me…)

Another step seems to be "if you are able to recognize all phenomena as the sport, vibration, or effervescence of this naturally arisen innermost awareness, this allows you to easily see that phenomena do not exist in and of themselves, independently, and are only set up by conceptuality. "

The next one after that seems to be working on "ascertain[ing] that all the phenomena of cyclic existence and nirvana are its effulgence" so that you can get to "understand[ing] that all pure and impure phenomena are, as the philosophical texts say, only nominally existent."

Eventually, you end up at "When you identify your own basic entity yourself and directly ascertain its meaning continuously and forever in meditative equipoise, then even though acting in the world, you are enlightened."

Voila!

The article is pretty limited in it's scope and the specifics of the follow-on steps are not covered, so maybe there's a purchase of "The Heart of Meditation" in my future.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 16 May 2016 16:21 #103397

I feel the need to say this here:

As I see it the awareness (innermost awareness) being discussed in that piece in not the same as awareness seen as an object. Most of the time when people speak of awareness they are talking about that version. The version here, the "innermost awareness" version, is not an object but the source of objects - it's the "central processing function" that allows for all experience to arise - time, space, and everything.

YMMV
Last Edit: 16 May 2016 16:22 by Chris Marti.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 16 May 2016 19:30 #103398

Chris Marti wrote:
As I see it the awareness (innermost awareness) being discussed in that piece in not the same as awareness seen as an object. Most of the time when people speak of awareness they are talking about that version. The version here, the "innermost awareness" version, is not an object but the source of objects - it's the "central processing function" that allows for all experience to arise - time, space, and everything.

In my view, the 'innermost awareness' the DL is discussing here (although to me the term 'innermost' seems very misleading in relation to what he's actually describing, as 'all-pervasive' or 'all-cradling' or similar would seem more what he's saying) seems extremely similar to what Kashmir Shaivism sees as awareness, which is everything, which is God (Shiva or Shiva-Shakti), which is the Self. This isn't that surprising inasmuch as (Tantric) Vajrayana Buddhism is very heavily influenced by Tantric Hindu beliefs and specifically Shaivism (check out this article by Hareesh Wallis).

Re Jake's point above, I think it's worth remembering that seeing no-self as the ultimate final experience is only one tradition's POV (and indeed was not how the Pali Canon Buddha described his own awakening - rather, as the seeing of rebirth, karma, and the destruction of the three major defilements).

In my experience, I would say I experience a no-self that is compatible both with the Kashmir Shaivism and Advaita traditions, and with the Buddhist tradition (this experience is 1 million times more 'everyday' than that description makes it sound :) ) There is an awareness or ground of being or consciousness which is the condition for everything, which is everything, it's not an object, and it is God or Shiva or Atman or the big Self, you realise that it is also your own self inasmuch as it is everything, it's eternal but not as an object and only inasmuch as the phrase 'eternal' can have meaning in the continuum of actual experience. The little self that we would ordinarily conceive of as 'the self' is a fiction made up of concepts and beliefs and stories and habitual patterns and responses that are objects, and this little self causes a lot of suffering - by realising awareness(-as-God), we see through the fiction of separation and realise the contingent and fictitious nature of those objects.

My view is that people mean a lot of different things when they use the term 'Buddha Nature,' but on the above note also worth checking out this article by Sallie King, The Doctrine of Buddha Nature is Impeccably Buddhist.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 17 May 2016 06:20 #103399

I think the awareness being talked about here is neither a ground nor an object, neither self nor separate from self, neither imprisoning nor liberating.

I found the article interesting because it could be very radical to someone identified with the superficial theories of buddhist practice. But I guess that's the point of dzogchen, a final cutting through fear and hope and a resting in a completion.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 17 May 2016 08:08 #103400

I think we're all saying the same thing but using our own language to describe it.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 17 May 2016 09:35 #103401

Agreed. This is not simple awareness as object.

I found the article interesting as a map and a description of a process. Recognition of the inner light of awareness comes by insight, sustaining it is the practice. Doing the practice leads to further developments -- seeing that phenomena do not exist in and of themselves, independently; understanding that all appearing and occurring objects of knowledge are essenceless; understanding that misapprehending phenomena as self-existing leads to still more entanglement in cyclic existence, etc.

So, I'm curious about the subject line of this thread. What, then, is the final basic experience in the article?
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 17 May 2016 10:45 #103403

There isn't one. Any experience is, by definition, impermanent, temporary, the product of ... that which is not an object or an experience.

:silly:
Last Edit: 17 May 2016 10:45 by Chris Marti.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 17 May 2016 11:15 #103404

That's the million dollar question and ultimately unanswerable beyond the experience itself, but I'll try anyway...

It is awareness

It is experience

It is seeing that awareness appears AS an experience

It is seeing that any experience is OF awareness.

Emptiness is none other than form.

It is seeing the mind nature of everything

It is seeing that experience and awareness are the SAME thing. This is the "one hand clapping".

There is no this that sees that

There is no this occurring within that

Everything is mind

There is no other mind

Everything is experience

Everything is as it is

Our whole spiritual search has been driven by searching for something that wasn't as it is, but everything is as it is.

Everything is an experience.

That insight is the basic experience in the article.
Last Edit: 17 May 2016 11:17 by shargrol.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 17 May 2016 11:20 #103405

This is why in Zen they use koans.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 17 May 2016 11:53 #103407

Chris Marti wrote:
This is why in Zen they use koans.

Like the subject of this thread.
Last Edit: 17 May 2016 11:53 by Andy.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 17 May 2016 20:34 #103408

Chris Marti wrote:
Very intriguing and definitely against the grain in some ways of the prag dharma convention of placing practices like Dzogchen or Mahamudra around the third path territory of the MCTB maps.


Where was that asserted? I've never heard it before.

I've definitely noticed that within pragmatic dharma, there is the idea that the more advanced Mahamudra & Dzogchen practices become much more appropriate and available at and after third path (and indeed, that has been my experience). But this wouldn't be the same thing as suggesting that the end-point realizations of those traditions correlate with third path. For what it's worth.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 17 May 2016 21:33 #103409

Good point, Jim!
Chris, I'm not sure it's in MCTB, it's more of a meme I associate with MCTB related discourse on DhO. I think it comes up sometimes in Daniel's biographical comments pertaining to his experience of third path, particularly in response to someone accusing him of being hostile to non-Therevada approaches.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 18 May 2016 06:46 #103411

Good point, Jim!
Chris, I'm not sure it's in MCTB, it's more of a meme I associate with MCTB related discourse on DhO. I think it comes up sometimes in Daniel's biographical comments pertaining to his experience of third path, particularly in response to someone accusing him of being hostile to non-Therevada approaches.(ooops, someone want to delete this double post? Posting from phone)
Last Edit: 18 May 2016 06:47 by Jake St. Onge.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 18 May 2016 08:03 #103412

Jake --

It was Kenneth Folk, I believe, who originally correlated Dzogchen techniques with the four paths described in Theravada buddhism. It was not, as far as I know, meant to say that the Dzogchen realizations are third path realizations but to suggest practices from Vajrayana buddhism to the MCTB/KFD crowd. This may indeed have been misinterpreted.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 18 May 2016 09:38 #103414

Interesting-- my recollection is there was actually some kind of controversy between Kenneth and Daniel around the perennial issue of whether Dzogchen/Mahamudra went 'beyond' fourth path or not. Again, differentiating between methods and realizations is key to clarifying this. In the traditions themselves there seem to be lots of controversy about what is called 'Buddha nature' and its relationship to the empty impermanence of all phenomena.

For me, this brings up the notion of the 'multi faceted jewel of awakening'. Some aspects of awakening pertain more to what phenomena are/aren't, other aspects pertain more to what the ground/source of phenomena is/isn't. Some facets pertain to qualities like love & compassion. Etc.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 18 May 2016 10:50 #103416

Jake St. Onge wrote:
Interesting-- my recollection is there was actually some kind of controversy between Kenneth and Daniel around the perennial issue of whether Dzogchen/Mahamudra went 'beyond' fourth path or not. Again, differentiating between methods and realizations is key to clarifying this. In the traditions themselves there seem to be lots of controversy about what is called 'Buddha nature' and its relationship to the empty impermanence of all phenomena.

For me, this brings up the notion of the 'multi faceted jewel of awakening'. Some aspects of awakening pertain more to what phenomena are/aren't, other aspects pertain more to what the ground/source of phenomena is/isn't. Some facets pertain to qualities like love & compassion. Etc.

As a side note to the "multi-faceted jewel of awakening' notion: here's an interesting recent study (2014): A Comparison of the Neurophysiological and Cognitive Correlates of Vajrayana and Theravada Meditative Practices

From the abstract: In conclusion, consistent with Tibetan scriptures that described Shamatha and Vipassana techniques as those that calm and relax the mind, and Vajrayana techniques as those that require ‘an awake quality’ of the mind, we show that Theravada and Vajrayana meditations are based on different neurophysiological mechanisms, which give rise to either a relaxation or arousal response.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 18 May 2016 11:23 #103417

Jake --
my recollection is there was actually some kind of controversy between Kenneth and Daniel around the perennial issue of whether Dzogchen/Mahamudra went 'beyond' fourth path or not. Again, differentiating between methods and realizations is key to clarifying this. In the traditions themselves there seem to be lots of controversy about what is called 'Buddha nature' and its relationship to the empty impermanence of all phenomena.

This is true. It was one of the reasons for the split between the original DhO and the original KFD. But it wasn't about what was 4th path or 3rd path. It was about the difference between the Mahamudra/Dzogchen version of non-dual awakening, which Kenneth had become a fan of, and Daniel's awakening descriptions that were purely based on Theravada/vipassana practices and realizations.
Last Edit: 18 May 2016 11:33 by Chris Marti.
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 18 May 2016 11:55 #103418

AKA the First Great Schism! :)
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 19 May 2016 13:00 #103422

weee!
schism!!!!!
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 21 May 2016 09:25 #103439

Maybe also interesting/relevant:

Dalai Lama speaks of his awakening

The Dalai Lama talks about his awakening/stream entry at the age of 35 years.
A quote from his book, "How to see yourself as you really are".


"When I was about thirty-five years old, I was reflecting on the
meaning of a passage by Tsongkhapa about how the “I” cannot be found
either within or separate from the mind-body complex and how the “I”
depends for its existence on conceptuality. Here is the passage:
'A coiled rope’s speckled color and coiled form are similar to those of a
snake, and when the rope is perceived in a dim area, the thought
arises, “This is a snake.” As for the rope, at that time when it is seen
to be a snake, the collection and parts of the rope are not even in the
slightest way a snake. Therefore, that snake is merely set up by
conceptuality. In the same way, when the thought “I” arises in
dependence upon mind and body, nothing within mind and body—neither the
collection that is a continuum of earlier and later moments, nor the
collection of the parts at one time, nor the separate parts, nor the
continuum of any of the separate parts—is in even the slightest way the
“I.” Also there is not even the slightest something that is a different
entity from mind and body that is apprehendable as the “I.”
Consequently, the “I” is merely set up by conceptuality in dependence
upon mind and body; it is not established by way of its own entity.'
Suddenly, it was as if lightning moved through my chest. I was so
awestruck that, over the next few weeks, whenever I saw people, they
seemed like a magician’s illusions in that they appeared to inherently
exist but I knew that they actually did not. This is when I began to
understand that it is truly possible to stop the process of creating
destructive emotions by no longer assenting to the way “I” and other
phenomena appear to exist. Every morning I meditate on emptiness, and I
recall that experience in order to bring it into the day’s activities.
Just thinking or saying “I,” as in “I will do such-and-such,” will often
trigger that feeling. But still I cannot claim full understanding of
emptiness."
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because there is indeed a final basic experience 21 May 2016 22:32 #103444

shargrol wrote:
AKA the First Great Schism! :)

Wait... That's a separate thing from AF right? Which would make AF the 2nd schism?
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