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TOPIC: Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner?

Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 22 Apr 2014 10:59 #19362

"(Am I remembering correctly that Aroter folks have a saying "there are no views, only methods"? That expression was going through my head as I typed the above.)"

I've never heard that particular statement; I HAVE heard, "Buddhism is about method, not 'truth.'" And I have heard that there is the method called "practice of View, or 'pure vision'"-- a relatively advanced practice that would require having really integrated the View, rather than having a verbal-intellectual familiarity with it.
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 22 Apr 2014 11:55 #19363

That's what I was remembering "no truths, only method" or something like that. Thanks Kate!
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 22 Apr 2014 12:14 #19364

shargrol wrote:
Clearer?

Is it? :lol:
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 22 Apr 2014 14:27 #19366

I'm pushing back because I suspect you're missing something important. Why, you ask? Because you remind me of me. I could easily be wrong, of course. You are no doubt clear on the methodological comparison, the logic and the facts. What you may not be clear on is the result. The fruit.
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 22 Apr 2014 15:14 #19367

Much appreciated Chris. Heartfelt.

edit: (Yes, I'm recalling an old conversation between us, about a particular time in your practice, which is what I think you are referring to.)
Last Edit: 22 Apr 2014 15:16 by shargrol.
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 22 Apr 2014 15:17 #19368

... a relatively advanced practice that would require having really integrated the View, rather than having a verbal-intellectual familiarity with it.

Another pointing -- note the last clause of what Kate has posted.

Sorry. I'll shut the f*ck up now.
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 22 Apr 2014 15:41 #19369

Yeah, my bloodhound scent smelled the weight of that. :D Gonna keep following the trail :)
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 22 Apr 2014 16:06 #19370

Chris Marti wrote:
... a relatively advanced practice that would require having really integrated the View, rather than having a verbal-intellectual familiarity with it.

Another pointing -- note the last clause of what Kate has posted.

Sorry. I'll shut the f*ck up now.

Shut the f*ck up?! I think you're holding back on us... :lol:
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 22 Apr 2014 16:10 #19371

Yup, you're holding back! You can even walk up walls! (I have no idea why those uploaded like that!)
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 22 Apr 2014 16:20 #19372

I've been outed!

:ohmy:
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 23 Apr 2014 08:27 #19378

Is there a distinction here between analysing a teaching method, and analysing a state? The first is a worthwhile intellectual exercise, the second necessarily not, but they're not in conflict? For what it's worth, from your description Shargrol (I haven't looked for myself, how unBuddhist of me :) ) the Fenner sounds like fairly standard neo-Advaita-style teachings (Gangaji etc) which I tend to think are true but not useful (indeed counterproductive) at early and various stages, which is an intellectual judgement :)
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 23 Apr 2014 09:29 #19379

Kate Gowen wrote:
"I HAVE heard, "Buddhism is about method, not 'truth.'" And I have heard that there is the method called "practice of View, or 'pure vision'"-- a relatively advanced practice that would require having really integrated the View, rather than having a verbal-intellectual familiarity with it.

I fully agree with Kate. "The View is the meditation" is a method of no method. Once there is a good familiarity with the unconditioned, taking the view that you are already there and making it immovable is a way to maintain the perspective that by definition cannot be found and cannot be maintained.
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 23 Apr 2014 10:33 #19380

My 2 cents: 1 cent-- I always understood that the "practice of View" is found, not imposed; a discovery, not a relentless intention.

2nd cent-- I think the reason all the glib analytical/intellectual/verbal formulations are so annoying (at some stages of practice) is that they are a sort of "near enemy," or imitation, of realization. All the conceptual pieces are in place, but that galvanic recognition of the heart doesn't animate them. In a way, "knowing" all the non-duality rap is a big obstruction. The intuition "so near, and yet so far" is maddening to an honest person; that others may demand no more... is sometimes sad, sometimes really annoying.
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 23 Apr 2014 15:50 #19381

Kate Gowen wrote:
My 2 cents: 1 cent-- I always understood that the "practice of View" is found, not imposed; a discovery, not a relentless intention.

Kate, when you say this practice is found or discovered, does that include as the result of pointing out (as in pointing out instructions)?
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 23 Apr 2014 18:55 #19382

The intuition "so near, and yet so far" is maddening to an honest person; that others may demand no more... is sometimes sad, sometimes really annoying.

This is, indeed, the main event, the main point, the biggest problem and yet greatest opportunity. Figure ground reversals are a serendipity sort of thing. You see 'em or you don't and until you see 'em they just don't seem to exist. After you see 'em they are easily repeated, at will, over and over again. You just know there's something you're missing and you know others seemingly just like you see it but it remains frustratingly, maddeningly invisible. My experience was that this frustration had to build to a huge crescendo, be pondered and chewed on like a dog would chew a rag soaked in beef stew.
Last Edit: 23 Apr 2014 19:01 by Chris Marti.
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 23 Apr 2014 19:34 #19383

Chris Marti wrote:
...this frustration had to build to a huge crescendo, be pondered and chewed on like a dog would chew a rag soaked in beef stew.

Great image! I think this is where the "poking with pointy sticks" by colleagues or teachers is so helpful sometimes. It helps keep you from finding a comfortable spot, and helps keep the frustration going. Somehow that seems necessary (or at least inevitable). If it's not frustrating, it's often because you've found a comfy (hiding) spot to rest in. So it has seemed in my own experience, anyway.
Last Edit: 23 Apr 2014 19:36 by Ona Kiser.
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 23 Apr 2014 20:30 #19384

Eran wrote:
Kate Gowen wrote:
My 2 cents: 1 cent-- I always understood that the "practice of View" is found, not imposed; a discovery, not a relentless intention.

Kate, when you say this practice is found or discovered, does that include as the result of pointing out (as in pointing out instructions)?

I think "pointing-out instructions" are a very delicate matter, and require something very like the traditional master-student level of intimate knowledge over time. I don't think anything more generic-- finding them in a book, or being given them as part of a class of students-- is likely to work, short of a miracle of coincidence. It's specific to the student, the circumstances, the master's skill, and the confidence and trust between master and student.
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 24 Apr 2014 06:16 #19387

Ona Kiser wrote:
Chris Marti wrote:
I think this is where the "poking with pointy sticks" by colleagues or teachers is so helpful sometimes. It helps keep you from finding a comfortable spot, and helps keep the frustration going. Somehow that seems necessary (or at least inevitable). If it's not frustrating, it's often because you've found a comfy (hiding) spot to rest in. So it has seemed in my own experience, anyway.

I'm appreciating all the comments. Thanks everyone.
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Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner? 24 Apr 2014 18:35 #19398

Great image! I think this is where the "poking with pointy sticks" by colleagues or teachers is so helpful sometimes. It helps keep you from finding a comfortable spot, and helps keep the frustration going. Somehow that seems necessary (or at least inevitable). If it's not frustrating, it's often because you've found a comfy (hiding) spot to rest in. So it has seemed in my own experience, anyway.

Thanks. I don't think I've quite heard things explained that way before. Frustration is usually the point where I go on the internet and find a new technique to practice. Now I can see how that might not be helpful.
Last Edit: 24 Apr 2014 18:37 by Kirk.
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