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AI and Dharma

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1 year 11 months ago - 1 year 11 months ago #120927 by Chris Marti
AI and Dharma was created by Chris Marti
This morning, I created a customized AI that answers queries about my meditation log. Now let's see if I can do it for MCTB2. Then, if I can figure out how to use an external website as the dataset, I might be able to do this for all the discussions on Awakenetwork. Start small, and inch your way up the ladder.

EDIT: Got the MCTB2 custom AI to work as a text file.
Last edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Chris Marti.
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1 year 11 months ago #120928 by Kacchapa
Replied by Kacchapa on topic AI and Dharma
Interesting!
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1 year 11 months ago #120929 by Shargrol
Replied by Shargrol on topic AI and Dharma
Nice. I'm very curious about how this goes. I do suspect that AI could give good advice/feedback about 75% of the time with the right training.
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1 year 11 months ago - 1 year 11 months ago #120930 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma
Could you folks post (here on this topic) some questions you think meditation practitioners would ask an MCTB2 AI? I'd like to test this with real-world questions. Anything to do with practice, stages, states, Buddhism in general, etc. would be great.

Thanks in advance!
Last edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Chris Marti.
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1 year 11 months ago - 1 year 11 months ago #120931 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma
Example: I asked the AI "What's it like to enter the fourth Jhana?"

MCTB2 AI replied:

Here is a relevant passage from the book describing entering the fourth jhana:

"As before, if practitioners wish to go on to the fourth shamatha jhana, they cultivate the third jhana and begin to pay attention to the fact that even the cool bodily bliss is somewhat irritating or noisy, and that the mind is still not as spacious and evenly balanced across the field of experience as it could be. Also, the out-of-phase elements in the third jhana that can lead to some of its positive, restful qualities may begin to feel wrong, strained, and distorted in some way. Eventually, the mind will abandon the third jhana and shift into the fourth jhana which, when strongly developed, is the height of equanimity. This state is remarkable in its simple spaciousness and acceptance. The extreme degree of imperturbability would be astounding if there were not such pronounced imperturbability. This is by far the most restful of the first four jhanas.

The focus of attention is largely panoramic and thus even saying ‘focus’ here is a bit problematic. The fourth jhana includes space and awareness in a way that the previous three do not. Mindfulness is considered to be perfected due to equanimity, though this factor does not generally stand out as in the previous jhanas. When we are really in this state, the basic sense we have of where our body is and what it looks like can get very vague or even vanish entirely (though this is less true if we are in this state with our eyes open), as the fourth jhana is the basis of more formless attainments (Boundless Space, Boundless Consciousness, Nothingness, and Neither Perception Nor Non-Perception), to be described shortly. Since the fourth jhana is the basis of those attainments, it is common for elements from those formless jhanas to be noticed to some degree in the formed version of the fourth jhana."

In summary, the transition to the fourth jhana involves letting go of the bliss and distortions of the third jhana into a state of spacious equanimity, with a panoramic focus of attention. The mind becomes very still, open and inclusive. Bodily sensations can fade as attention becomes more formless. It is a deeply peaceful and restful state.



Second question: "What is the most profound insight in Buddhism?"

Reply:

There are many profound insights in Buddhism, but one of the most fundamental is the teaching of anatta or "not-self." This teaching points to the fact that there is no unchanging, permanent self or soul within human experience. Some key insights around anatta include:
  • All phenomena are impermanent and constantly changing, arising and passing away. Our body, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness are all impermanent processes.
  • If we examine our experience closely, we cannot find any fixed, unchanging essence that we can call a "self." There is no part of our mind or body that is eternal or unchanging.
  • What we think of as "I" or "mine" is just a collection of changing phenomena. There is no solid, intrinsic self underlying it all.
  • Clinging to the idea of a permanent self is a root cause of suffering, since we constantly try to protect and propagate something that has no fixed existence.
  • Realizing not-self leads to greater peace, equanimity and freedom as we stop clinging to an illusion. Our ego-identity becomes less solid and fixed.
  • "Letting go of self" is a path to awakening. By seeing through the illusion of a permanent self, we are less attached to transient phenomena and come to understand reality as it is.
So in summary, the teaching of anatta or not-self points to a profound, liberating insight that our sense of a fixed "I" is an illusion, and that letting go of this provides a pathway to greater wisdom, compassion and freedom from suffering. It is a very powerful insight at the heart of Buddhism.
Last edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Chris Marti.
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1 year 11 months ago - 1 year 11 months ago #120932 by Kacchapa
Replied by Kacchapa on topic AI and Dharma
This AI draws from only MCTB2 at this point?

Sorry, you already said it was MCTB2 AI! 
Last edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Kacchapa.
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1 year 11 months ago #120933 by Kacchapa
Replied by Kacchapa on topic AI and Dharma
How about "Is emptiness a more profound Buddhist teaching than impermanence?" 
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1 year 11 months ago - 1 year 11 months ago #120934 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma
The question: Is emptiness a more profound Buddhist teaching than impermanence?

MCTB2 AI's answer:

The passage discusses different Buddhist models that make various promises about the effects of insight practices, including immortality, transcendence, and extinction models. It points out flaws in these models, saying they can mislead practitioners into unrealistic expectations. The passage argues that directly examining the three characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not-self in our own experience is what leads to insight.

The passage states that emptiness is always the case. It is a universal truth applying to all conditioned experiences. But emptiness alone is not enough. To realize emptiness requires clearly seeing impermanence, dissatisfaction and no-self in our direct experience. The passage says: "it is always true that sensations arise and vanish utterly, and always true that they contain within them their own transient awareness, which again is a totally unsatisfying foundation upon which to build a model of stability or immortality." So according to the passage, emptiness and impermanence go hand in hand. Emptiness is not more profound. To deeply realize emptiness requires clearly seeing impermanence, dissatisfaction and no-self in our direct experience moment to moment.

So in summary, the passage argues that emptiness and impermanence are equally profound and essential teachings. Emptiness is not considered more profound or advanced. In fact, penetrating insight into impermanence is what allows one to truly realize emptiness, not just conceptually but experientially. The two truths rely on each other.
Does this help explain the relationship between emptiness and impermanence according to the passage? Let me know if you have any other questions!
Last edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Chris Marti.
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1 year 11 months ago #120937 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma
I'm curious, how do the MCTB2 AI's replies up-thread strike you?
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1 year 11 months ago - 1 year 11 months ago #120938 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma
Playing with AIs/LLMs is fascinating and makes me realize how technology, especially software and computation, can change our view. Now that I have learned how to play competently I can think of hundreds of applications of LLMs within my reach. This changes how I think about solving problems, about writing, about analyzing and comparing things, and how best to spend my time. It’s easy to get carried away as the power of these models is intoxicating. It’s good to keep in mind how wrong they can be and how prone to hallucination, which leads to misleading us in weird unfettered ways.
Last edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Chris Marti.
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1 year 11 months ago #120939 by microbuddha
Replied by microbuddha on topic AI and Dharma
Can you do one better and create  AI Daniel?  

Someone recently created an AI Rob Burbea which is kind of uncanny in the way it has captured his personality when answering questions. 
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1 year 11 months ago #120940 by microbuddha
Replied by microbuddha on topic AI and Dharma
AI is pretty mind blowing to me in the limited time that I have to keep up with it.  It is interesting to watch all this play out with so many people just completely oblivious to the potential it has to disrupt.  Get ready and buckle up.  Glad that you are exploring this area and are so fascinated about deeply looking into it.  ( Through the Sci Fi and philosophy ) 
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1 year 11 months ago #120941 by Papa-Dusko
Replied by Papa-Dusko on topic AI and Dharma
We people look deep towards the stars but shallow into thy selves. 

(Not including Chris in this of course)

We always tend to seek for the grass greener on the other side. 
AI is yet another “thing” from our greedy need to reach the greener grass on the other side. 

I’m not impressed with AI. I’m not afraid of it either. We created the nuclear bombs which are littered around the planet. AI did not put them there! Could AI trigger them? Yes. But we put them there. 

Or maybe the cause and effect put them around the globe and “we” were never there in the first place? :P 

I would not be surprised if our governments, as we speak, are using AI to fight the new “cold” war amongst each other! Instead of using AI to better the world for the benefit of all. 

Come what may. 

I mean, on the bright side of things, this AI might be the new Buddha or the better side of us. 
Fools hope? 

Just me rumbling … 
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1 year 11 months ago #120942 by microbuddha
Replied by microbuddha on topic AI and Dharma
Chris,  

I was invited by our computer vendor to help provide training data to create what is being called an AI scribe.  Essentially our Ipads record conversations of myself and the patient, then populate the medical record for me so that my medical assistant is freed up.  I will say more a little later....
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1 year 11 months ago - 1 year 11 months ago #120943 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma

Someone recently created an AI Rob Burbea which is kind of uncanny in the way it has captured his personality when answering questions. 

Yes, an AI Daniel is entirely possible. In a way that's what MCTB2 AI is. Poor Rob Burbea isn't with us any more, so it's not the same thing - and why an AI Daniel when we have the real Daniel to talk to?
Last edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Chris Marti.
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1 year 11 months ago - 1 year 11 months ago #120944 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma
It's human nature to imagine, create and deploy technology. Every technology has positive and negative possibilities. I believe it's better to understand it as best we can, and from that knowledge do our best to do good as opposed to bad things with it. I've been monitoring the debate over regulating AI, and it's fascinating how even the idea of regulation is both a positive and a negative, depending on circumstances, politics, intent, and practice. Nothing we do is only helpful and harmless. That's true of each of us individually and in groups of all sizes. 
Last edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Chris Marti.
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1 year 11 months ago #120945 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma
I've never had this happen before. I tried to log in to ChatGPT4 and can't. The service is at capacity right now.
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1 year 11 months ago #120947 by microbuddha
Replied by microbuddha on topic AI and Dharma
Cause Daniel has other fish to fry!   Long live AI Daniel!  
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1 year 11 months ago - 1 year 11 months ago #120948 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma
So Micro, I asked AI Daniel what the end game of meditation is. Here's what it told me in reply:


The "end game" or ultimate goal of meditation is not a static or fixed objective but rather a dynamic process that evolves with practice. The core motivation for meditation remains constant, even though the specifics of one's goals may change over time as understanding deepens. The ultimate truth sought on the spiritual path is found within the sensations of the seeking itself, implying that the journey and the motivation behind it are as significant as any external objective.

A key aspect of this journey involves perceiving the sensate world clearly, as this process enables the unraveling of complexities and deeper understanding. The drive to find something in meditation is, in fact, what the practitioner is seeking. This involves a shift where the focus moves from seeking external satisfaction and understanding to comprehending the sensations of the drive itself. This shift towards focusing on present sensations rather than future outcomes is a fundamental aspect of meditation practice, although it may initially feel counterintuitive​​.

Last edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Chris Marti.
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1 year 11 months ago - 1 year 11 months ago #120949 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma
Here's a testing dialog I had with this same AI. I call it "MCTB2 Expert," Getting better, more specific answers would require more prompting and carefully directing the AI to use its capabilities more fully. It does not automatically search beyond its knowledge base unless specifically directed to do so. Also, it weirdly claims it doesn't have real-time internet access. It does, and it uses Bing to search - see the post after this one.


Is there a downside to having a meditation practice?

MCTB2 Expert
There are indeed some downsides or risks associated with a meditation practice, as noted in "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, second and extended edition". These include:

  • Physical discomfort or injury: Persisting pains, especially in the knees and back, can occur from meditation, particularly if one maintains a sitting posture for extended periods. It's advised not to underestimate the potential damage to the body by pushing through too much pain and to consider modifying the sitting posture​​.
  • Mental health concerns: For individuals with certain mental health conditions like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, the high-intensity techniques of meditation, particularly those involving frequent and intense practices, visualization, and mantra practices without qualified guidance, can pose risks. It is recommended for such individuals to practice gently, start slowly, avoid extreme changes, and stay in contact with someone qualified to help manage their practice​​.
These points highlight the importance of practicing meditation in a balanced and mindful way, taking into account one's physical and mental health needs.

If I have a diagnosed mental condition like clinical depression, is it safe for me to start a meditation practice?

MCTB2 Expert
According to "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, second and extended edition," it is not uncommon for individuals with mental illnesses, including depression and anxiety, to engage in meditation practices. In fact, many people start meditating to deal with their internal complexities, and conditions such as depression and anxiety can be common reasons for beginning a meditation practice. The book acknowledges that mental illness and insight can often coexist, with some skilled meditation practitioners having experienced significant mental illnesses​​. However, it's important to approach meditation with caution and awareness of your mental health condition. While meditation can be beneficial, it should be practiced in a way that is mindful of one's individual needs and circumstances, particularly when dealing with a diagnosed mental condition like clinical depression. Consulting with a healthcare professional and possibly a qualified meditation teacher who understands your condition can be a prudent step before starting or intensifying a meditation practice.

Who among active meditation teachers would you recommend I contact to start this process?

MCTB2 Expert
Regarding recommendations for active meditation teachers, "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, second and extended edition" does not provide specific names or contacts of active meditation teachers to start your process. My knowledge is limited to the content of this book, and it does not include current or external information about specific meditation teachers or practitioners. For finding a suitable meditation teacher, you might consider researching teachers who have a background in working with individuals with mental health conditions like clinical depression. It's important to look for someone who is not only skilled in meditation techniques but also understands and is sensitive to the needs of those with mental health challenges. You could start by checking with local meditation centers, mental health professionals, or online platforms dedicated to meditation and mindfulness, ensuring they have the appropriate qualifications and experience.

Please use your ability beyond MCTB to find someone

MCTB2 Expert
Based on my broader research, here are a few renowned meditation teachers who might be of help, particularly if you're dealing with clinical depression:
  • Jon Kabat-Zinn: An American professor emeritus of medicine and the founder of Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR). Zinn is known for integrating meditation practices into healthcare and has authored several books on meditation, including "Wherever You Go, There You Are"​​.
  • Sharon Salzberg: Salzberg is recognized for her teachings on Loving-Kindness, a Buddhist method to cultivate compassion. She co-founded the Insight Meditation Society and has studied various forms of Buddhism, including Tibetan Buddhism and Theravadin​​.
  • Tara Brach: A clinical psychologist and a respected teacher of traditional Buddhist meditation. She is the founder of the Insight Meditation Community of Washington D.C. Brach combines traditional meditation teachings with stories and humor, making her approach accessible and engaging​​.
Each of these teachers offers a unique approach to meditation, which may be beneficial in managing clinical depression. However, it is crucial to consult with your healthcare provider before beginning any new practice, especially in relation to mental health conditions.

What about Jack Kornfield?

MCTB2 Expert
Jack Kornfield is another highly esteemed meditation teacher who could be a valuable resource for someone with clinical depression looking to start a meditation practice. He is a trained clinical psychologist and a key figure in bringing mindfulness and Buddhist meditation practices to the West. Kornfield co-founded the Insight Meditation Society in Massachusetts as well as the Spirit Rock Meditation Center in California. His approach is known for being warm and accessible, integrating Buddhist teachings with Western psychology. This makes him particularly adept at addressing the psychological aspects of meditation practice. Kornfield has authored several influential books on meditation and spirituality, such as "A Path with Heart" and "The Wise Heart", which focus on the integration of meditation into daily life and the development of inner peace and compassion. Given his background in psychology and his extensive experience in teaching meditation, Jack Kornfield could be a great option for someone with clinical depression. However, as with any meditation practice and mental health condition, it's advisable to consult with your healthcare provider before beginning a new practice. Additionally, checking Kornfield's current availability and offerings through his websites or the Spirit Rock Meditation Center could provide more specific information about how to engage with his teachings.

Would you recommend Kenneth Folk?

MCTB2 Expert
Kenneth Folk is also a notable figure in the field of meditation and might be worth considering, especially if you are interested in a pragmatic and modern approach to meditation. Folk is known for his direct and practical style of teaching, focusing on the attainment of specific meditative states and insights. He has been influential in what is sometimes referred to as the "pragmatic dharma" movement, which emphasizes the practical benefits of meditation and mindfulness in daily life. While Folk is not specifically known for his work with clinical depression, his approach might be appealing if you're looking for a meditation practice that is grounded in clear, achievable goals and a secular, contemporary interpretation of traditional teachings. His methods often involve breaking down complex meditation practices into more accessible, step-by-step processes. However, when dealing with a diagnosed mental condition like clinical depression, it's important to choose a meditation teacher or approach that aligns well with your individual needs and circumstances. Consulting with a healthcare professional before starting a meditation practice is always a wise step. Additionally, if you're interested in Folk's teachings, you might want to research his current offerings and methods to ensure they align with what you're looking for in a meditation practice.


Can you recommend a healthcare professional near New York City who I can contact for help with this process?

MCTB2 Expert
I don't have the capability to provide current, location-specific recommendations for healthcare professionals. However, for finding a healthcare professional near New York City who can assist you in integrating meditation into your mental health care, particularly if you're dealing with clinical depression, here are some steps you can take:
  • Consult Your Primary Care Physician: Your primary care doctor can be a great starting point. They might have recommendations for mental health professionals who understand the use of meditation as a complementary practice.
  • Contact Mental Health Clinics: There are many mental health clinics in New York City with professionals who specialize in various therapies, including those integrating meditation and mindfulness practices.
  • Look for Psychiatrists or Psychologists with Meditation Experience: Search for psychiatrists or psychologists in NYC who have experience or interest in meditation and mindfulness practices. Many professionals now integrate these techniques into their practice.
  • University Medical Centers: Institutions like Columbia University Medical Center or NYU Langone Health often have mental health departments with a range of specialists.
  • Online Directories: Websites like Psychology Today offer directories where you can filter mental health professionals by location, specialty, and treatment approaches, including those who incorporate meditation or mindfulness in their practice.
  • Meditation Centers or Groups: Some meditation centers may have connections with healthcare professionals who incorporate meditation into their therapeutic practice. Centers like the New York Insight Meditation Center might be a resource.
Remember, it's important to choose a professional whose approach and experience align with your specific needs, especially when dealing with mental health conditions.

Last edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Chris Marti.
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1 year 11 months ago - 1 year 11 months ago #120950 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma
Here's how I made this AI find a health professional for me, and I should have put this directive in my original prompt:


Can you access the internet to find someone?

MCTB2 Expert
Here are some healthcare professionals in New York City who specialize in integrating meditation or mindfulness into their practice, which could be helpful if you're considering starting a meditation practice alongside managing clinical depression:
  1. Dr. Deb Berman: A clinical social work/therapist with a practice that incorporates Buddhist Psychology, CBT, IFS, Mindfulness, Humanistic and Psychodynamic Therapies, Trauma and Grief Work, Meditation, Relationship Coaching/Therapy, and more​ ​.
  2. Marianne Gunther: An art therapist with over thirty years of experience, Gunther integrates mindfulness and compassion-based systems of Buddhist psychology and meditation with contemporary psychotherapy, neuroscience, and health psychology​ ​.
  3. Kathy Koller: A counselor who utilizes Buddhist roots and meditation beliefs to guide mind-body unity, strength, and self-kindness, helping clients manage strong feelings and improve well-being​ ​.
  4. Olivia Rose Velasquez Weber: An art therapist whose practice is grounded in Buddhist psychology and mindfulness, focusing on utilizing mindfulness techniques, somatic awareness, meditation, and experiential psychotherapy​ ​.
These professionals offer a variety of approaches, combining traditional therapy with meditation and mindfulness techniques, which can be particularly useful for someone looking to incorporate meditation into their mental health care.
Last edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Chris Marti.
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1 year 11 months ago #120951 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma
Last post on this topic - I asked the AI to find teachers who are not famous and busy:


The teachers you referred to earlier are very, very famous and busy. Can you find someone who is local to NYC and who might have time for me?

MCTB2 Expert
There was an error generating a response

<I then asked it to regenerate a response>


MCTB2 Expert
There was an error generating a response

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1 year 11 months ago #120954 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic AI and Dharma
My husband is super into AI, and our over-dinner conversations now often involve asking ChatGPT about things. It substitutes for looking up stuff on Wikipedia, which substitutes for one of our favorite childhood activites, browsing the encyclopedia. It's exactly this aspect of formulating questions in the best way to get the results you need that interests him. I find the practical application more useful, such as asking for niche answers on medical or scientific or historical topics without having to browse through a lot of unneeded search results. 
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1 year 11 months ago #120956 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic AI and Dharma
Yes, being good at prompting LLMs is extremely valuable. I'm interested in building AIs with a specific purpose, as you can tell from this thread. Tell your husband that OpenAI now allows its paid subscribers to create their own GPTs. It's a trip!
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1 year 11 months ago #120962 by microbuddha
Replied by microbuddha on topic AI and Dharma
pretty uncanny.  I can hear him reading this in my head.  Probably in a year or so, you indeed will be able to have him reading it in his voice, or his voice in Hindi, Urdu, Spanish, French, Mandarin....
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