Saints and Psychopaths

I just had the good fortune to read this book last night that is recommended by Kenneth and Daniel.

The connection between you all is very clear. And, again, the book is extremely helpful.

Hi Nigel,

Yes, *Saints and Psychopaths* is an interesting if uneven read, and it's the only book Bill Hamilton wrote about dharma. Just before he died, he was talking about writing a book called *Essential and Unessential Dharma* in which he would strip away cultural and religious trappings and talk about what was left. He never got to do it, of course.

I was disappointed in Saints and Psychopaths because it wasn't representative of Bill's best work. He was much better in person. But he did make some important points about how enlightened people and psychopaths are superficially similar and I think the book should be required reading for anyone who is trying to decide whether their teacher is legitimate.

How did you get hold of a copy? I'm told the book is going for outlandish prices on eBay.

Kenneth

I want to read it but the price is prohibitive at about $175. That's on Amazon.com.

Chris, I know the Insight Meditation Society library has a copy. If you find yourself in Barre, MA on retreat sometime, you might be able to talk a staff member into checking it out and lending it to you. (Yogis aren't allowed to use the library.)

I have a copy somewhere, but it isn't with me here in New York. Except for the wealthier among us, however, $175 is too much to pay for that book IMHO.

"
I want to read it but the price is prohibitive at about $175. That's on Amazon.com.

"

from $59.39 if you don't mind used.

www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/09644904...=UTF8&condition=used

That's still sort of steep on the value scale - based on what Kenneth said.

Sorry about the delay. I can send you my copy Chris. I found an electronic copy that someone had scanned.

I was searching around for more information about Bill and to see if I could find any quotes or writings from him. Then I found that someone had, it seemed just 2 or 3 days earlier, uploaded Saints & Psychopaths.

For me, it was just what the doctor ordered. I've already had the benefit of reading from your work, Kenneth, and from Daniel's. Those more than make up for any deficits in his work. If I'd encountered his work first, I might not have recognized its value or legitimacy. But after having read yours and Daniel's this was exactly what the doctor ordered.

I read the whole thing from 10 PM to 2+AM and I felt some healing taking place as I read. It was just one of those times.

I liked the whole discussion of psychopaths, but what I really found wonderful was his description of the progress of insight/four paths. I liked his description of the vipassana process as beginning to observe previously unconscious processes. It was another valuable perspective.

(And he directly qualified that he was not reducing the process to a psychological one.)

I also felt tha tI benefited greatly from his personal self-disclosure.

Hey guys!

I found the same file Nigel is talking about too. Here is a link to download the book. Please see below:

www.mediafire.com/file/iyjfzyzyo5j/19649...-and-Psychopaths.pdf

I have yet to read it. Seems interesting though.

Kenneth, I would love to have read that proposed/anticipated book by Bill. I sense great depth and clarity in that being.

Enjoyable reading guys!

In kind regards,

Adam. Edited for bad link.

Just downloaded the file. Thanks Adam.

You're welcome buddy!!

Just started reading the part about psychopaths. Wish I had read this book years back. I have learned the hard way how to smell them miles away.

Awesome. got the copy as well. Thank you for posting the link.

Andrew

Thanks for the link!
My line of work has brought me into contact with several true psychopaths.

There's a great chapter in the "48 Laws of Power" which gives a formula on how to be a charlatan based on the principles refined by the great 16th and 17th century charlatans. Actually the whole book has some relevance to this topic, but law 27 is "Play on people's need to believe to create a cult-like following" and gives 5 easy steps to creating your own cult. Implicit in the program is that you talk to groups of people, as individually, your ideas might appear ridiculous. Step 1. Keep it Vague, Keep it Simple: Offer something great and transformative which is both easy to achieve, and simple. Do so in vague terms. The classic technique of offering a single simple solution to all of life's very complex problems. Step 2. Emphasize the Visual and the Sensual over the Intelectual: Use theater and spectacle to ward off boredom and skepticism. Use brightly colored visual aids, incense, but above all avoid making people really think. Step 3. Borrow the forms of Organized Religion to Structure the Group. Talk and act like a prophet, organize your followers into a heirarchy, rank them in degrees of sanctity, give them lofty sounding titles, create rituals, and don't forget to ask for sacrifices to fill your coffers. Step 4. Disguise your source of income. Surround yourself with luxury, but never reveal it comes from your followers money - make it seem as though it flows from the truth of your teachings. You must never be seen as hungry for money. Step 5. Set up an "Us vs. Them" Dynamic. To keep your followers unified, you must do what all religions have done and create an Us vs. Them dynamic. Make sure your followers believe they are part of an exclusive club unified by a bond of common goals, then to strengthen the bond, manufacture the notion of a devious enemy out to ruin you.

Thank you! Thank you!

Adam,

The link you found is a bit better than the one I found in that mine required me to log-in. Yours seems to be freely accessible to anyone.

All's well that ends well.

""There's a great chapter in the "48 Laws of Power" which gives a formula on how to be a charlatan based on the principles refined by the great 16th and 17th century charlatans. Actually the whole book has some relevance to this topic, but law 27 is "Play on people's need to believe to create a cult-like following" and gives 5 easy steps to creating your own cult. Implicit in the program is that you talk to groups of people, as individually, your ideas might appear ridiculous. Step 1. Keep it Vague, Keep it Simple: Offer something great and transformative which is both easy to achieve, and simple. Do so in vague terms. The classic technique of offering a single simple solution to all of life's very complex problems. Step 2. Emphasize the Visual and the Sensual over the Intelectual: Use theater and spectacle to ward off boredom and skepticism. Use brightly colored visual aids, incense, but above all avoid making people really think. Step 3. Borrow the forms of Organized Religion to Structure the Group. Talk and act like a prophet, organize your followers into a heirarchy, rank them in degrees of sanctity, give them lofty sounding titles, create rituals, and don't forget to ask for sacrifices to fill your coffers. Step 4. Disguise your source of income. Surround yourself with luxury, but never reveal it comes from your followers money - make it seem as though it flows from the truth of your teachings. You must never be seen as hungry for money. Step 5. Set up an "Us vs. Them" Dynamic. To keep your followers unified, you must do what all religions have done and create an Us vs. Them dynamic. Make sure your followers believe they are part of an exclusive club unified by a bond of common goals, then to strengthen the bond, manufacture the notion of a devious enemy out to ruin you."
"

Thanks for summarizing this, Haquan. The unfortunate truth is that both genuine & fake teachers often do these same things.

What a wonderful procrastination was reading the Saints and Psychopaths. It was intriquing, but the personal stories and dharma advice RESONATED. It basically allowed to put myself into a context (mind needs it from time to time). I love my family to no end. I like my career, I feel fortunate in life.
The way of home practice -- is my path for now. I guess there will be a lot of online interactions, perhaps when life conditions allow for it/settle we could all meet, but I am realizing this is going to be a REALLY long process. That is how it is written for me and whatever happens on the way --> will happen. I get the intuitive feeling that I can't really force it. The competitive mind realizes I'm in the middle of the bell curve of this things somewhere (noting competitie mind).

Bill's Story about a monk on alms rounds getting lost but then feeding the entire monastery (becoming a better teacher) hit home HARD.

I get the sense he was a gentle but powerful teacher. I am grateful we can learn some of the wisdom passed on through you and Daniel, Kenneth,

Unending Metta
Unending Upekha
Unending Mudita

Andrew

So is this book freely given. I have increased my obeyance of copyright laws as of couple of years. (Love the creative commons and SOME rights limited btw).

But question is:

Would Bill have wanted for his book to be distributed this way. I feel a lot of APPRECIATION and if there some causes he cared about, I would like to donate some money for the teachings.

Maybe he would have loved it to be this way, in this way.


U N E N D I N G G R A T I T U D E

Andrew

"My line of work has brought me into contact with several true psychopaths.
"

Hi Haquan

Has your experience with psychopaths influenced you much? Do you believe in a force of evil at play in the universe?

48 Laws of power is very entertaining book. I really must read through the whole thing one of these days, if for no other reason than to recognise these shenanigans when they're taking place.

There is a Shinzen Young video on youtube where he answers a question about how to know if a teacher is genuine and he says that crazy people can easily be mistaken for having the body language of someone enlightened.



Craig

Hi Andrew!

You're right to pose that question. On the ethical level, only you can answer this question, as law and ethics are two different domains. A donation may be appropriate - of money or your time, energy or work offered in the name of gratitude and Bill's efforts; whatever you feel appropriate.

In kind regards,

Adam.

"

Has your experience with psychopaths influenced you much? Do you believe in a force of evil at play in the universe?

48 Laws of power is very entertaining book. I really must read through the whole thing one of these days, if for no other reason than to recognise these shenanigans when they're taking place.

There is a Shinzen Young video on youtube where he answers a question about how to know if a teacher is genuine and he says that crazy people can easily be mistaken for having the body language of someone enlightened.



Craig"

"Has your experience with psychopaths influenced you much?"

No, not really. It is a bit strange to have compassion for those who are incapable of compassion, but that's my job. It is a spectrum, certainly. I don't think I've ever encountered a "spiritual teacher" psychopath. Just the old fashioned career criminal type.

"Do you believe in a force of evil at play in the universe?"

Not precisely. I believe in evolutionary and involutionary modes of being, and evolutionary and involutionary karmic traces. It seems more accurate. Briefly, if one is functioning as a "holon" then one is in an evolutionary mode of activity, if one subverts the best interests of the larger community in which they participate for their personal interests, then they are in an involutionary mode of activity.

I listened to 48 Laws on audio. Great way to get through it. I've seen a few mad people who had that air, but many many more that could never have been mistaken for an enlightened person.
I like that Shinzen Young guy.

So what's the verdict?

Adi Da - Saint or Psychopath?

(By the way, I know this is an ostensibly Buddhist website, and I don't want to reduce the level of the conversation, but I just have to say, Adi Da's daughter is *really* hot. Can you imagine what that would be like to date a girl whose father is literally God, or thinks he is? Totally creepy, either way!)

"So what's the verdict?

Adi Da - Saint or Psychopath?

"

In the past I have recognized I seem to be strangely removed ( at least consciously ) from concern over anothers credentials, attainments or that truth be mixed with error. This now this seems to extend to whether one is a psychopath! If all were considered psychopath AND saint would not we just take truth where we could find it. I know this is not the attitude of "Saints and Psychopaths" which is why the book was a selective read for me. I think it better guru relationships be scrutinised rather than the guru.

"So what's the verdict?

Adi Da - Saint or Psychopath?

(By the way, I know this is an ostensibly Buddhist website, and I don't want to reduce the level of the conversation, but I just have to say, Adi Da's daughter is *really* hot. Can you imagine what that would be like to date a girl whose father is literally God, or thinks he is? Totally creepy, either way!)"

Hi Haquan,
Adi Da was a powerful Siddha. I have sat with him and experienced instant transport to the formless realms. That never happened with any other spiritual teacher I ever met. In addition, Adi Da's writings show great insight, understanding and personal experience with the entire range of spiritual experiences and Realization. I find them to be incomparable.

All that being said, I must also state that his spiritual community and he himself were, in many ways, quite dysfunctional, particuarly around money, food and sex (and drugs). Often ascetic but just as often libertine, there was no way to tell which way things would go during any particular period of time. I left the community many years ago.

But I still revere Adi Da and value his teaching. He and his instruction have functioned effectively to help me at several crucial junctures in my practice.

As for his daughters -- which one did you mean?

The actress Shawnee Free Jones: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawnee_Free_Jones

The musician Nameela Free Jones: www.herstome.com/home.html

Or the artist Io Free Jones: iofreejonesart.com/

I'm thinking it was probably Shawnee, 'cause of that nude scene she did in "L.A. Confidential."

Wow, they're all kind of hot, aren't they? But yes, I was thinking of Shawnee, and laughing at the idea of dating the daughter of God. I have this mental image of making out with her, and suddenly hearing her say, "Daddy's watching" Whomp Wamp Wahhhh....

Everyone I've ever talked to said he was a powerful Siddha, and I've read his work. Clearly he was gifted with radical spiritual insight - but I've seen films of him where it seemed obvious that he would espouse all the non-dual stuff, but then pull a bait and switch and offer HIMSELF as THE non-dual. I've wondered whether he might of been a case of someone who was both highly realized and mad.