My practice

I'm a beginner to regular practice of meditation .

My practice consists of 20mts per day, Primary focus is on breath counting, and once it's stabilized I do noting practice ( while counting breath in the background). Mental ramblings occur even when my attention is on breath!. I just note them.

Lately, most of the thoughts/sounds I hear that come into my mind have the flavor of "occurring, doing their thing and leaving" - just like when you put a pebble to a pond. It makes a momentary ripple and it's gone. I live near a busy roadway, so the sounds of vehicles have the same quality when I listen to them while meditating.

I've been doing some " Who is this I" practice and through that, I've been able to resolve mental chatter into feelings and sounds, without finding an "I". But, there's this force/momentum/ habit which gives birth to a concept of "I". It's really hard for me to resolve and get additional insights about this phenomena though. Hopefully, as I time goes I'll get more insights.

Additionally, about 2 yrs ago I had an A&P experience ( which started this whole thing). Now, even to this day I feel as if I've been trying to hide behind a more spiritualized "self" in my life, participating day to day stuff in a half assed way. This has become a negative feedback loop. I assume that's how my ego wants to preserve itself from being hurt. But that has to stop. And, imo, the feedback loop is akin to karma?? your actions producing the life you live in.

Finally, I'm grateful for Kenneth, Jackson Wilshire and others for for their insights. Thank you for the "progress of insight" articles. I've personally experienced it to be true, as my practice now starts ( and stays :-/ ) on what might be called 4th nana.

Comments, tips,experiences are welcome.

"even to this day I feel as if I've been trying to hide behind a more spiritualized "self" in my life, participating day to day stuff in a half assed way. This has become a negative feedback loop.
"

Hi N.Ga.
By "negative feedback loop," do you mean continually creating a story around the notion of hiding/divided attention to day-to-day stuff, and that the content of the story is negative and basically self-condemning?

"Hi N.Ga.
By "negative feedback loop," do you mean continually creating a story around the notion of hiding/divided attention to day-to-day stuff, and that the content of the story is negative and basically self-condemning?"

Well, it's more like reluctance to participate in day to day stuff, because I felt it was all an illusion. And when a problem exacerbates because of my non-participance, the pain and stress it caused me seek refuge in my "spiritualized self", rather than dealing with it directly.

"Well, it's more like reluctance to participate in day to day stuff, because I felt it was all an illusion. And when a problem exacerbates because of my non-participance, the pain and stress it caused me seek refuge in my "spiritualized self", rather than dealing with it directly."

I can really relate to that "loop" from several phases of my life. I wonder if it is a typical dark night thing?

N.ga,

First of all, you're welcome! I'm so happy that my attempts to articulate my understanding of the path of insight have encouraged you (and many others, I hope) to practice well.

Sounds are excellent objects for vipassana/noting practice. Nothing much to suggest here, as you seem to be doing quite well. Every now and then, you may wish to try paying special attention to the "knowing" aspect of the arising and passing of sound objects. Discover and rest in what Ajahn Chah referred to as the One Who Knows. That has always been helpful to me.

Next, you wrote: "But, there's this force/momentum/ habit which gives birth to a concept of "I". It's really hard for me to resolve and get additional insights about this phenomena though. Hopefully, as I time goes I'll get more insights."

I like this Ramana Maharshi called this habit energy the 'I'-thought. And that's really what it is - a mental construct that masquerades as "I". When practicing self-enquiry, notice this 'I'-thought and enquire into its source. What gives rise to this "I"? What is the source of "I"? This is good practice.

I'm looking forward to more of your practice updates. Thanks for sharing!

Jackson

" Well, it's more like reluctance to participate in day to day stuff, because I felt it was all an illusion. And when a problem exacerbates because of my non-participance, the pain and stress it caused me seek refuge in my "spiritualized self", rather than dealing with it directly."

OK, I get it. Like Telecaster, I'm very familiar with this. In fact, I'm going through it now. To give you an example, I play guitar in an old-time fiddle band. I was very, very into playing music for years and years, but I've been getting deeper into practice over the past couple of years and have totally lost interest in playing music. Adyashanti talks about this in his book The End of Your World--activities that previously had a lot of oomph because they were part of the glue holding the aforementioned "I" thought together (the egoic structure) suddenly lose their appeal. You no longer feel like running, playing hockey, practicing the guitar or perhaps, in your case, plunging into certain day-to-day activities with gusto.

Seems to me this is indeed part of the path. I've also at least read of practitioners at later stages suddenly feeling like going in the opposite direction. Maybe the ideas of ascending (i.e. world-transcending) and descending (i.e. world-embracing) currents are in play here. If the lack of interest is like getting shot with the proverbial first arrow, I can at least say for myself that I'm trying to not stab myself with the "second arrow" (feeling guilty or negative or beating myself up about the fact that I'm losing interest in certain things).
Of course, what I'm talking about is a hobby. You might be talking about more serious stuff that really does require adequate effort and attention....

One thing I think such hobbies as guitar playing can do for us is provide the transcendent experience that we so desire. Once a serious meditation practice is developed then the hobbies lose some of their appeal because the peace and joy is coming from somewhere else (and usually more of it).

"One thing I think such hobbies as guitar playing can do for us is provide the transcendent experience that we so desire. Once a serious meditation practice is developed then the hobbies lose some of their appeal because the peace and joy is coming from somewhere else (and usually more of it). "

Good point.

"Good point."

I've often wondered why so many of the greatest musicans are drug addicts. I know from experience that they must get great joy and quite a charge from playing music, so, why drugs? My only thought has been that maybe the music playing sets up a craving to get high that they want all the time, not just when playing. Or, maybe, in the playing the joy/trascendence if imperfect, unreliable and short-lived, while with drugs it can be controlled and counted on.
Now, back to N.ga's practice notes. (sorry)

Thanks for the responses. Oh btw, feel free to hijack.

Of course, reality is complex. N.Ga. also pointed to a sense of having built up some kind of "spiritual self." One hypothesis would be that, as the egoic structure starts to loosen, yes, a person loses interest in hobbies and other activities that had served as part of the glue holding that structure together. But then the ego steps in and tries to put itself back together. So in my case, I'm now intensely interested in spirituality. Is that intense interest really so warranted? Couldn't I just be practicing and not doing quite as much ruminating, Web-surfing and podcast-listening? Has the ego swapped out a guitar for spirituality? It always seems like a good idea to ask these kinds of questions....

"Of course, reality is complex. N.Ga. also pointed to a sense of having built up some kind of "spiritual self." One hypothesis would be that, as the egoic structure starts to loosen, yes, a person loses interest in hobbies and other activities that had served as part of the glue holding that structure together. But then the ego steps in and tries to put itself back together. So in my case, I'm now intensely interested in spirituality. Is that intense interest really so warranted? Couldn't I just be practicing and not doing quite as much ruminating, Web-surfing and podcast-listening? Has the ego swapped out a guitar for spirituality? It always seems like a good idea to ask these kinds of questions...."

Yes! Keep asking those questions

The self-contraction is incredibly malleable, and it's of the nature of stuck-ness. As attachments to 'things' within the world of diversity loosen up, the self-contraction has a knack for quickly co-opting one's spirituality as its new sticky abode.

If you find that you are stuck in a particular view or set of activities, or whatever, that is usually a good place to direct your enquiry.

~Jackson

"Of course, reality is complex. N.Ga. also pointed to a sense of having built up some kind of "spiritual self." One hypothesis would be that, as the egoic structure starts to loosen, yes, a person loses interest in hobbies and other activities that had served as part of the glue holding that structure together. But then the ego steps in and tries to put itself back together. So in my case, I'm now intensely interested in spirituality. Is that intense interest really so warranted? Couldn't I just be practicing and not doing quite as much ruminating, Web-surfing and podcast-listening? Has the ego swapped out a guitar for spirituality? It always seems like a good idea to ask these kinds of questions...."

thanks for the hijack permission
this brings up one of my favorite ideas/subjects/passions:
to me, the more "spiritual" or "awake" etc. one is, then the less time will be spent engaged in activities that seem "spiritual." If one is really awake then one is going to do whatever is right in front of them and that could be anything from playing the guitar to teaching high school to driving a bus to feeding the homeless (or being homeless) to becoming a buddhist monk/priest. One could be a guitar playing bus driving homeless zen teacher. Who knows? the more ordinary, the more awake, I think.
But, of course, for some people their true nature is to be a scholar or "expert" on stuff and their main thing could be sprituality, causing them to do a lot of studying and ruminating.
Or, and I think this is often the case, we get enough of the intense practice and podcasting listenting, etc. to create enough awakening to cause us to then "jump" back into the world with an awakened heart.
There really is no way of knowing, right? The important thing is to be sincere NOW.
cont.

I often wonder how many of our friends at this awakening endeavor also have some kind of ambition to become some kind of spritual authority/expert/teacher and have students and temples and books and stuff like that. To become an Adyashanti, Shinzen Young, Genpo Roshi type person?
Me, I really just want to be ordinary, not suffer and have some peace and joy in my life and would hate any kind of attention or scrutiny about my spirituality (though I love it when anyone anywhere thinks I have something worthwhile to say!).
I think for some people this kind of thing goes hand in hand with an ambition to some day become a teacher at some level or another.
I have a prejudice that as soon as someone is successful enough as a spiritual authority that they can live completely on revenues from books, seminars, retreats, gifts from wealthy students that they become almost disqualified as a teacher to me. I prefer to hear from someone who has to change diapers and get their oil changed and show up to work for a boss that is not impressed at all with his or her spiritual attainments.
But, like I've said before, I wonder if i'll need to someday tone that down.
With both Kenneth and Daniel Ingram so far my sense is that their ambition is just a simple desire to share something valuable that they have learned -- so they are okay with me!

Good post there, Mike. I can't even imagine being a spiritual teacher. I'm impressed with two who I know well, and I know from watching them I'm not suited for anything like that. I don't have the patience and, worst of all, I'd drive all my students out of their bleepin' minds

Yeah, great posts, Mike.
I actually think it would be very hard to be a spiritual teacher. The best ones are actually making a sacrifice in an attempt to help people out. They have to carry all the starry-eyed, unrealistic projections of their students, listen to the whining, the indulging in "personal stuff" and so forth. Doesn't sound fun!

One clue I'd probably not be suited to spiritual leadership/teaching: i recently realized that if i had the time and resources to either go on a week long silent retreat or to a week in Vegas (or a tropical resort) with my wife -- I'd pick Vegas and my wife. No contest.
However, I think she and I will at some point go on a retreat together.

N.ga, in my opinion, you should continue your spiritual practice, read the sutras, go to retreats. Now especially when you are young, and have less entanglements. I was in a similar situation like yours, and I did all those which helped me during my dark nights time. The reasoning is that you haven't seen the Truth yet, so instead of devising your own practice, you should follow what other teachers advise to quickly experience kensho or stream entry.

Practice the paramitas, brahmavihara. These are the time tested formula to get there,

" instead of devising your own practice, you should follow what other teachers advise to quickly experience kensho or stream entry.
Practice the paramitas, brahmavihara. These are the time tested formula to get there,"

This sounds like great advice from jin..lin!

Thanks for the advice, Jin lin, but due to financial reasons and other stuff, I can't do retreats ( at least at this point of my life). Anyway, I've taken a tougher ( no bleedthrough) stance on dark night.

I did a small modification in my practice. Instead of focusing on breath, I started focusing my attention on the sounds I hear ( I live next to a busy roadway. Especially, the aspect of them occurring and dissapearing. Most of the sounds still have a solid aspect, but I like this better than focusing on my breath.

And, also, instead of tightly focusing my attention on sounds I took a more diffuse approach and tried to watch the appearance and disappearence of sensations in my ears and my feet.

On the other hand, the background malaise dark night gives has reduced somewhat. Maybe it's because I've adopted a "no bleedthrough" policy, or maybe it's because of increased practice. Now, a question for the advanced mediators- does the progress of insight depend on practice, or does it have a momentum of its own ?, or is it like, it has a momentum of its own, but the practice speeds it up?

Hey N.ga,

In my experience, if I didn't meditate and I was in the dark night, the dark night would last a lot longer. But if I sat for an hour (usually cos I was fed up with all the dark night symptoms) I would shoot up to equanimity in a one sitting. But at other times I could see myself going through stages even without sitting. But I am still of the opinion that sitting each day will speed up the process for sure!!!

"Now, a question for the advanced mediators- does the progress of insight depend on practice, or does it have a momentum of its own ?, or is it like, it has a momentum of its own, but the practice speeds it up? "

Though I can hardly refer to my meditation practice as "advanced"...

The answer is... both.

The process seems to do itself. At the same time, progress is quickened when the appropriate type of mindful attention is applied. For the majority of the path, I'd say the best type of attention is open, accepting, inclusive, and non-manipulative. There are only a few occasions when really hitting noting practice hard is helpful, mostly when working toward crossing the A&P.

Because the dark night stages can make us feel scattered and unfocused, I find the following instruction helpful. When you sit, keep about 25-30% of your attention on the preferred object, which is usually the breath at the nose or the abdomen. This works as an anchor to the present. Then, allow the rest of your attention to remain open, registering what arises and letting go what passes. The same can be done while walking. Keep 25-30% of your attention on walking, and allowing everything else to arise and pass within your own inherent natural wakefulness. This worked wonders for me when I was in the dark night working toward stream entry.

Your updates are sincerely helpful. I look forward to reading them.

~Jackson

"about 25-30% of your attention on the preferred object, which is usually the breath at the nose or the abdomen. This works as an anchor to the present. "

@ NSH Thank you for your comments. Thanks for the advice.

I tried to get more insight into the interrelated nature of physical sensations and mental sensations. I had some insights towards that mental sensations are related to physical sensations by knowing how sad feelings make throbbing sensations in your throat area. Today I got another insight. During my meditation session, I was somewhat jittery, wanting to leave before the session ended. Then something struck me. The pain in my legs from sitting was making me think of quitting the session, my physical sensations giving birth to mental sensations!