Enlightenment is not just a Buddhist thing

I am finding all sorts of info these days that has nothing to do with Buddhism and its schools of thought that seems to correlate with my experiences on the path.

Here is an interesting site on Kundalini awakening within the Hindu tradition. At the end is a great little explanation on 3rd gear, 2nd gear and 1st gear experiences of awareness. The explanation of kundalini awakening sounds like the fruitions that i experience now and then

The whole world is opening up to me. Wonderful!


www.swamij.com/kundalini-awakening-6.htm

I couldn't agree more, Nick. Enlightenment is not a Buddhist thing. It happens to human beings in all sorts of traditions as well as outside of traditions. Some traditions have great technologies for awakening and developing, but nobody owns enlightenment. That wouldn't even make sense.

Looking forward to reading the link.

Kenneth

Nikolai, this just made my day.

Kenneth's reply was also spot on. I think the Buddhist tradition probably has the most sophisticated technologies of awakening. But even if old Sid never attained enlightenment under the bodhi tree, awakening would still be the birthright of every human being (or even every sentient being) that appears in the Kosmos.

"Unitas Multiplex" - the unity of multiples. The surface features may change, just as waves take different shapes on the surface of the ocean. But both the surface and greatest depth of the ocean have one taste.

~Jackson

Yes.

This is also why arguments over which tradition is right (Mahayana, Vajrayana, HInayana) are a waste of time. They're all right. Awakening is our birthright as human beings.

Buddhism is a well designed and suitable frame for a picture which paints itself eternally and effortlessly. But as you all mention, there are others: some minimalist, some baroque.

I do wonder though; is Stream Entry, Once Returner, etc, only acheivable to those who practice insight meditation/vipassana?

In the model in which it is presented, Stream Entry seems to follow a specific pattern, and (as far as can understand) it's acheived after the A&P event and a high-speed examination of the dissolution of phenomena...

Question for those who have attained: Awakening is not just a Buddhist thing, granted, but is Stream Entry just a Buddhist thing? Can Nibbana and the ceasing of outflows only be attained through the framework which vipassana presents it?

"

Question for those who have attained: Awakening is not just a Buddhist thing, granted, but is Stream Entry just a Buddhist thing? Can Nibbana and the ceasing of outflows only be attained through the framework which vipassana presents it?"

From what I have experienced after 1st path, it seems similar to the whole idea of the kundalini awakening. I've heard that the A/P can set it off but I feel stream entry really made it obvious. Something was making it's way up the body. Chakras, which i had thought to be some new age thing, started becoming very very obvious experiences as well as blissful energy rising up the body now and then.

As this thing rises up the body/spine, it passes through the chakras, setting off all sorts of activity at each one. Sometimes staying there for a long time, or short. Some miserable sensations flow from especially the solar plexus, heart and throat region. As I head to to the next path, I have a heap of third eye blockage as well as the crown area as well. The negative sensations I felt at the chakras, I had felt them there before stream entry. And I remember there seemed to be an order to what I felt....the solar plexus...depression, ****** sensations and being anxious, then the heart, lots of misery there, then the throat, always an agitated sensation there. If I reacted to these sensations, it would be with all sorts of negative emotions. Makes me think it the process is linked to the Dark night.

Now, after 1st path, once that energy rises to the crown...if it doesnt sit there and make me "wear an iron skull cap" for awhile these days, I will get a fruition/cessation moment/blip out. Then it starts again with A/P at the base chakra with the body buzzing with pleasant sensations then rises once again to repeat this process. I don't know if this is exactly how it is for other post path yogis.

This, for me, sounds awefully similar to the whole idea of kundalini awakening explained in the link I gave above. I could be wrong but I'd prefer to think these himalayan yogis are doing it and just giving it different names.

Also, have you read August Leo's journal thread?

It seems he was praciting all sorts of non buddhist like practices for years and then he got stream entry. If I rememebr correctly he was doing a 2nd gear like practice. 2nd gear is not really Buddhist. I reckon if you practiced 2nd gear long enough....you would get path.

"Question for those who have attained: Awakening is not just a Buddhist thing, granted, but is Stream Entry just a Buddhist thing? Can Nibbana and the ceasing of outflows only be attained through the framework which vipassana presents it?"

I think Nick is right in regards to vipassana being very much like kundalini yoga. We don't often think of vipassana as an "energy" practice, but it most certainly includes a great deal of energy work. Though, rather than intentionally manipulating the flow of energy or encourage certain chakras to open, one's emphasis is places on simply noticing whatever arises in each moment. As we quickly discover through practice, energy tends to following directed attention. So in my opinion, the two are really just different ways of working through a shared process.

Regarding Nick's comment about the possibility of attaining stream entry while practicing 2nd gear or other awareness-based/formless practices, I think he's right to suggest that this is possible as well. Of all the meditation practices available that are vehicles for awakening, there are some common elements. Shinzen Young boils it down to two key factors: mindfulness and equanimity (which are two of the key factors of the classical teaching of the Seven Factors of Enlightenment). I agree. I think that any practice that simultaneously encourages us to sustain wakefulness (staying present, being here now) and cultivate equanimity in regards to any and all arises will eventually lead to stream entry and beyond. 2nd gear (dwell as the Witness) has mindfulness and equanimity in spades.

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(continued from above)

I wouldn't say that 2nd gear is "non-Buddhist" at all. The practice may not be found in the Pali canon, but placing an emphasis on dwelling in the knowing nature of mind has been a part of the Buddhist tradition for many centuries, if not millennia. Just read any literature on traditions base on Third Turning (Buddha Nature) teachings, like Zen, Mahamudra, or Dzogchen. Thai Forest Buddhism also places a great deal of emphasis on the knowing nature of mind (or 'Citta'), and this is a Theravada tradition (though the tradition itself is quite young). Recognizing the cognizant, wakeful aspect of mind and following it all the way to full enlightenment is not always described as "dwelling as the Witness" as it is in Vedanta Hinduism. If we look past the terminology and really get a feel for the practices themselves, the fact remains that there are based on the same intrinsic reality.

[Interesting side note: from what I've read, these more "non-dual" traditions arose as innovations by forest dwelling (or wilderness dwelling) yogis as opposed to city/state affiliated monastic communities. This is true of Zen (think Bodhidharma), Mahamudra (Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa, etc.), and more recently, Thai Forest (Ajahn Mun). This is fascinating to me. Anyway...]

~Jackson

Yeh, Jackosn, I think you are right to say that 2nd gear is not "non- buddhist". I was thinking, I guess, more of the technique of asking who am I? and dwelling in that. My knowledge of all the buddhist schools is quite lacking. But my point was that, this practice is within the hindu tradition as well. So to repeat again, Enlightenment aint just a Buddhist thing!

"Yeh, Jackosn, I think you are right to say that 2nd gear is not "non- buddhist". I was thinking, I guess, more of the technique of asking who am I? and dwelling in that. My knowledge of all the buddhist schools is quite lacking. But my point was that, this practice is within the hindu tradition as well. So to repeat again, Enlightenment aint just a Buddhist thing!

"

Right on.

We should also remember the Buddha was a Hindu yogi who renounced his cast to become a sadhu (then called shrama or wandering ascetic), that Padmasambhava was most probably a Kapalika (which is clear from the iconography - the skull cup is the typical attribute of the Kapalika tantric sect related to a particular episode of the Shiva Puranas in relation with Bhairava) and that the Mahasiddhas, at the root of the Tibetan Kagyu tradition, are also known by Hindus as the early Nath yogis.

What I mean is that the distinction between Hinduism and Buddhism never really existed before the Muslim conquest of North India. What we now know as Hinduism is a category created by 19th century Western scholars to identify a vast pan-Indian religious and mystical culture reformed by Adi Shankaracarya at the turn of the 9th century.

I really appreciate the replies gents. I am certainly going to read August Leo's journal.

I'd sure like to gather some further perspective on whether it is posibile to have achieved stream entry without A&P or without accompanying deep insight into the three characteristics. The question is rather specific so I think I will make a seperate post about it as to not draw this discussion on "Enlightenment being not just a Buddhist thing" off track.

Hello all,

i have a question, do you think attaining first path and higher through 2nd or 3rd gear would imply as a by product an easy access to the jnana and all the stratas of mind ? i've been wondering about this for a long time.

thanks

"Hello all,

i have a question, do you think attaining first path and higher through 2nd or 3rd gear would imply as a by product an easy access to the jnana and all the stratas of mind ? i've been wondering about this for a long time.

thanks"

Yes. For myself and others I know, attaining first path brought along access to at least the first four samatha jhanas. We don't have a large enough data set to know whether or not this happens for all or most stream winners, but I'd be willing to guess that it happens more often than not - especially for those who are practicing in a jhana friendly tradition (not all traditions acknowledge jhanas as being worth exploring).

If you haven't already, read the latest Q&A article between Kenneth and Joel at BuddhistGeeks.com. Much of it has to do with this very topic.

www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/04/heaven-hell-and-the-middle-way/

" I will get a fruition/cessation moment/blip out. "

I've never come across the "blip out" thing except specifically in DhO and KFD forums. Swami J's stuff is about increasing awareness--- I don't see where the blipping out is. I see that Swami J talks about transforming the unconscious state into a conscious state. Krishna Menon said that after self realization, deep sleep is the same as nirvikalpa samadhi. This is a lot different from attaining a "nirvana" state of unconsciousness.

Of course, I may just be a failed Mahasi-type practicioner: all my falling away of mind-and-body experiences were present in awareness. The only time I've ever blipped out is when I fall asleep!

"I've never come across the "blip out" thing except specifically in DhO and KFD forums."-msj123

Hmmm... A quick Google search just now for "cessation of perception and feeling" revealed many references to cessation including this one from the Culavedalla Sutta:

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html

Matt, you are in no way a failure for having not experienced cessation/fruitions, but I sure wish you would end your campaign to discredit them.

Kenneth

other references discussing cessation
The Path of Freedom (Vimuttimagga)
The Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga)
The Path of Serenity and Insight
Abhidhamma books

It appears also that in some schools or traditions people experience cessation, but do not know what it is, nor do they know what it is called in traditional Nikaya Buddhism. I had one more confirmation of this fact last week at the occasion of a lunch with one of my old dharma-brothers who received dharma transmission to become a Soto Zen teacher 10 years ago.

Sharing our experience and understanding of Dogen's zazen, he said something like: "what people are describing as kensho is not kensho itself but the knowledge that follows. True kensho is an almost imperceptible dip into the unconditioned where consciousness stops short for a brief moment'.

Needless to say, this phenomenological description of cessation and fruition knowledge surprised me, considering that he obviously discovered it on his own, while no one seems to talk about it in the Soto school, at least not openly.

Thanks for that Alex. I am encouraged to hear your friends comment. I talked to a Zen teacher briefly on the phone here in singapore a month or two ago. I explained what happened with my dip, I was going to go on and try to explain the shift since (hard to do) she just said... well experiences are kind of worthless don't worry about it, come study Koan thats how to really get enlghtened... (I didn't drop the E word myself) etc. etc... Its not a knock on her but I am glad to see that your zen friend is talking about the same thing...

I know Clayton... Zen has become very popular, but I am affraid that few really know what it's all about.
One of my friends from Seattle told me that it took him two years to find a qualified Zen teacher who could guide him through the post awakening phase.
Some also believe that their method is unique, but the great Chinese masters of the Tang Dynasty relied on hardcore vipassana practice, strait from the Agamas. They were more like Ajahn Chah.

I recommend Michael Gozen LaTorra as someone who has penetrated deeply to the heart of Zen and also honors and understands vipassana and the changes that come about through time. Gozen-sensei is a Zen priest in the Soto Zen tradition.

www.zencenteroflascruces.org/index.html

"I've never come across the "blip out" thing except specifically in DhO and KFD forums. Swami J's stuff is about increasing awareness--- I don't see where the blipping out is. I see that Swami J talks about transforming the unconscious state into a conscious state. Krishna Menon said that after self realization, deep sleep is the same as nirvikalpa samadhi. This is a lot different from attaining a "nirvana" state of unconsciousness.

Of course, I may just be a failed Mahasi-type practicioner: all my falling away of mind-and-body experiences were present in awareness. The only time I've ever blipped out is when I fall asleep!"

It also might be worth point out that many of the founding IMS (Insight Meditation Society) teachers were at one time students of Mahasi Sayadaw. The Mahasi tradition clearly includes cessation/fruition in its teaching, as it is based on the Visuddhimagga.

From what I hear (as I've never been on retreat at IMS), the IMS teachers don't teach about stream entry much in their dharma talks, but they do acknowledge the Mahasi criteria (cessation/fruition) as valid. People get stream entry in their centers to this day. Though, as mentioned in the Hurricane Ranch Discussion a while back, it most likely only happens for a minority of the practitioners, since it isn't really emphasized.

But I digress...

It's real, man.

P.S. The reason I bring up IMS is that they're as mainstream as it gets. Sure, they don't spend a lot of time talking about traditional attainments. But they do teach them to those who are interested, from what I hear.

"I've never come across the "blip out" thing except specifically in DhO and KFD forums. Swami J's stuff is about increasing awareness--- I don't see where the blipping out is. I see that Swami J talks about transforming the unconscious state into a conscious state. Krishna Menon said that after self realization, deep sleep is the same as nirvikalpa samadhi. This is a lot different from attaining a "nirvana" state of unconsciousness.

Of course, I may just be a failed Mahasi-type practicioner: all my falling away of mind-and-body experiences were present in awareness. The only time I've ever blipped out is when I fall asleep!"

Who is Swami J?

Thank you Kenneth - I forgot to recommend Michael Gozen LaTorra.
Gozen knows as well as I do that true Soto Zen teachers are rare these days.
But he is an exceptional teacher and we are blessed to have him on this forum.