Delaying Dark Night- Practice samatha

Hi

I am from Sweden and I started practicing concentration meditation for half year ago. I used Ajahn Brahms technique and eventually got tired, never reaching any Jhanas. However I got to access concentration and switched to vipassana (mahasi style) for a month ago. I found my self in A&P with all brilliant light, rapture etc.
I never knew that I had crossed the 3 first nanas. Ever since I have been following this website with all great practical information from Kenneth. It is all of great value and Kenneth seems to be a great and very compassionate teacher.

Right now I am at Dissolution nana and dont want to enter the dark night yet. I will have 10-days retreat in about 15 days and want to delay it until then. I do sitting
meditation 2 hours, half hour walking everyday and want to practice samatha.

Is it wise to do so?
Will I enter the dark night "automatically" without doing vipassana? Or fallingback to A&P and start over again?
How will I attain all 8 Jhanas? (need help with samatha technique)

Sugato

Hi Sugato,

It's very difficult to manage development in this way; it's largely out of our hands and no one knows how long each stage will last. Having said that, your best bet for delaying progress is to seek distraction and avoid meditation entirely: no vipassana and no samatha. Watching a lot of television and going out to bars with your friends just might be enough distraction to keep you from progressing.

My advice would be to abandon all thought of manipulating your progress. Just continue to practice as much as you can and take your life as it comes. Sometimes it will be easy and sometimes it will be difficult. Eventually, you will have to be able to skillfully navigate both heaven and hell, so you may as well start learning now.

The most powerful samatha technique I know of is gazing at a kasina object. It's very easy and straightforward: just prop up a cereal bowl against the wall and stare at it. You will become very concentrated in this way and your skill at concentration will continue to build over a lifetime as long as you continue to practice. You will eventually access the first eight jhanas, just be staring at the bowl. Try it and let us know what happens. The other posters and I will be happy to offer guidance and answer questions.

Kenneth

Sugato,

You and I have very parallel stories. I also practiced samatha for a number of years after reading Ajahn Braham and also got to A&P but no Jhanas. Then I came across Kenneth on the Buddhist Geeks podcast and realized there was a whole other approach. I highly recommend moving forward on the path, as that concentration you've cultivated will be very useful.

I went through the Dark Night phase recently for the first time and am just now coming out of it this week. While it wasn't as nice as dissolution, I can honestly say that it didn't make me crazy or interfere with my ability to work, study or have fun. The worst that happened was that I became cranky with my wife and had to make up for it by making her lots of snacks. In fact, I've been working on my dissertation and managed to do more work during the DN phase than before, as it seemed to give me a lot of energy. Now that I've experienced it, I would caution that avoiding it is probably more detrimental than diving into it and embracing it.

An alternative plan might be to try and work on through DN before (and into) the retreat and then focus on Equanimity there while you have the time to focus intensely. If I'm reading the maps right, Equanimity is where the first path moment happens, so this would be a great place to be on the path during a retreat.

That is just my opinion, but I feel we have a lot in common, and I hope it is useful to you. Good luck in your practice!

Ron

Thank you for your replies.
I guess the best way is to abandon all these thoughts and continue my practicing, facing the reality just the way it is. It really encourged me to continue the path. It is nice to have sombody (Ron) who has been through the same as I did
As to Samatha practice, I will try with Kasina and see what happens. (Or maybe take breath as objekt). I would need personal guidance though.


Sugato

Hi everybody

I just want to say that it took me 4 days to go through the dark night. Also I want to thank Kenneth and Ron for encourgment and advices. It wasnt bad as people describe it. Actually I enjoyed it in somehow. There were deep dark ( or sadness) feelings mixed with deep joy. I had never felt that way. It reminded me in somehow of when I was baby and didnt want to let go of my mam. I still had those feelings during my daily life during these 4 days. My friend noticed that and thought that In was sad or something. Apart from that, it didnt affect me studying.

At some point there was just TOO much and I couldnt take it any more.
It was hard to note the rising and falling of the abdomen and its sensation. My awarness was wide and it was really confusing. It sort of turned of and turned on again. It was like I was dreaming and awake simultaneously I thought that I was lost in thoughts and fantasies because there arose different kind of images. When I tried to turn my attention to those by noting, they immediatly dissappeared.

On day 4 I made the resolution " I wont get up until I am out of this confusin". 1 and half hour later I was finally home. The sudden shift to calm equanimous and happiness. When I got there at first I just wanted to rest there for a while (no vipassana until I sat next sat haha ).

So right now I am at Equanimity nana and it seems that by noting dosnt make any further progress. When noting "arising" "falling" of the abdomen there is much more, like space, sounds, touching etc. (its is kind of frustrating). So far noting has helped me alot.

Is it okay to drop noting and jus see what is there? i.e broad/wide awarness on many objects simultaneously.
Also, what is formations and how can they be recognized?


Sugato

THIS is why I love the maps and Kenneth's no mushroom culture approach to practice. This guy knows where he has been, he knows where is at, and he has a good clue as to where he may go and how to get there. The questions he is asking now are based upon real facts and he will get real help.
Do you realize how RARE that is in the contemporary dharma culture? It's all so vague and unhelpful for the most part with everyone kind of bumping into each other in the dark.

Telecaster makes such a true statement. This kind of honesty is sooo rare. Now Sugato has a great idea of where he may be on the road map. Well first off I am sure you know this, but it is easy to fall back into the Dark Night from the 11th nana. Not saying it has to happen but don't be shocked if it does. I think everyone finds different practices work well for them. So if noting is working for you keep it up. If you want to try some more open awareness practice there shouldn't really be any harm in trying it out... But now you are in a great position to go on retreat if you are already in the 11th nana... what kind of retreat are you going on?

"THIS is why I love the maps and Kenneth's no mushroom culture approach to practice. This guy knows where he has been, he knows where is at, and he has a good clue as to where he may go and how to get there. The questions he is asking now are based upon real facts and he will get real help.
Do you realize how RARE that is in the contemporary dharma culture? It's all so vague and unhelpful for the most part with everyone kind of bumping into each other in the dark.
"

And the amazing part is that people are progressing and the normal statement is
"I've been practicing for x number of years and found this forum, over the past couple of months I have been able to clearly identify x strata of the mind and are finally progressing.
It raises the idea of the teaching culture and version of Buddhism that is being peddled in the west.
I have talked to nuns and monks and there is clearly a theme about levels of teaching, how you should progress and the expectation of the level a lay person can expect to achieve.
I notice that there a larger number of people on the web associated with Adivta Vendetta who accept the possibility of awakening with practice.
The problem is that expectations of "accomplishment" are so ingrained into western Buddhism that you are chained to start with and often chastised by fellow practitioners if you question this.
I understand that intention - right mind, right view has a significant impact on practice yet it appears in the west that this is perceived as grasping for enlightenment. I see the same aversion in the west when you mention exploring siddhas.

There is no question that left to the western Buddhism establishment process most practitioners will flounder, and I suspect most just give up. If they don't give up they remain in an almost perpetual fugue, meditating on psychological issues and processes, which is exactly the wrong approach. How may practitioners have you guys met who can talk all day long about their sadness, their repressed feelings, their childhood memories, and so on?

Back to the subject of this thread (apologies for my morning rant), the subject of Dark Nights has been elevated to the forefront of dharma discussion which is a good thing and a great insight into the self as it literally rebels or fights for its survival. It is a recognized stage of progression amongst all the great traditions and yet in the past has been given little attention from teachers.
Do we have more identification with a "Self" in the West then the East given our capitalist society were our "Self's" success is made so important with technology making communication,interaction and competition very important in our daily lives. Do we in the West carry more psychological garbage wrapped up in the Self. Are Dark Nights intensified given our culture.
The Devils Advocate also says that with Dark Nights being raised in everyone awareness we are developing an aversion and expectation that everything that goes wrong is due to the Dark Night stage. Many times instead of stopping, thinking about what ifs and worrying about impact on our lives (there is always impact) maybe we need to practice and push through instead of faltering, stopping and creating the causes for there to be an impact, this is the self fighting for its "life". The act of continuously traversing the Dark Nights leads to the insight to progress forward.

"right view has a significant impact on practice yet it appears in the west that this is perceived as grasping for enlightenment"

I really feel what you're saying. It is frustrating to run into that. After all the Buddha's last words were to "sampādetha" or "strive" on diligently. It seems that there was a lot less confusion about striving during the Buddha's time, and now people think it's all bad. I'm glad to be striving for enlightenment - I'm tired of suffering!

Sugato, you asked about whether to keep on noting or not... I'm running into a similar issue. Noting feels a little intrusive in Equanimity, and I'm starting to become very still and quiet during this phase. However, I do worry about getting stuck there. After all, I was stuck at A&P for years and I don't want to repeat that. I'm going to keep up the noting practice because it has worked really well so far, but if nothing happens, I'll likely switch over to more concentration or silent awareness like you described.

The state of western buddhism is sad. I was wondering recently if it could have something to do with the profound influence of Soto Zen on western buddhism. This school famously claims that just sitting is itself enlightenment. I dunno its a comforting philosophy, but it is just completely false. After my last Goenka retreat I was having lunch with someone on the bus ride back to singapore. I ask her about her practice. She said she had experienced a big opening on her retreat 6 months earlier but now was floundering. I explained the progress of insight as clearly as I knew how. She called me within a few days and said what I told her made more sense than her entire 10 day retreat. Well, I said, I just told you what I finally learned, these things have been understood by yogis for thousands of years--and yet everyone wants to keep the lay students in the dark. Heaven forbid they actually aspire to get enlightened.... The other thing is during the 11th nana *from my experience* you will inevitably have to give up extreme striving before path shows itself. So that whole non grasping thing everyone is worried about preserving is built into the cycle anyway...

Basically what I think we are all trying to say Sugato is you are in the right place...

You guys are making good points here. If it wasnt for this website and Daniels book (and site), I would be stuck in A&P (and not to mention DN). It might hav taking years to get me where I am now. Being honest and knowing these maps is extremly helpful.

As to my practice, I will try what works.
"what kind of retreat are you going on?"-ClaytonL
It is at a theravada monastery in Germany. Basically, the practice is up to you.So I am going to fill the free time with 40 min walking, 1 hour sitting, 40 walking 1 hour sitting meditation and so forth.
It is my first retreat ever (any advice or tips?).


Sugato

"You guys are making good points here. If it wasnt for this website and Daniels book (and site), I would be stuck in A&P (and not to mention DN). It might hav taking years to get me where I am now. Being honest and knowing these maps is extremly helpful.

As to my practice, I will try what works.
"what kind of retreat are you going on?"-ClaytonL
It is at a theravada monastery in Germany. Basically, the practice is up to you.So I am going to fill the free time with 40 min walking, 1 hour sitting, 40 walking 1 hour sitting meditation and so forth.
It is my first retreat ever (any advice or tips?).


Sugato "

be sure and read tarin greco's 'a reformed slackers guide to stream entry' from dharmaoverground.

MCTB has a some helpful tips, in the section on daily life and retreats.

One thing I'll add on to what you'll find there is how helpful it can be to take opportunities for interviews, if that's offered.

And, as you could have guessed, talking very practically about meditation is the best use of your interview time.

But the content of the discussion is only part of the value: simply chatting with another human being one-on-one can be a really good way to regain a sense of normalcy, sanity and common sense, when going a bit too far out there, as may happen on retreat.

Well know in advance that the first couple days will probably be spent acclimating to the environment and the last day or two will be spent waiting for re-entry. This is especially true of your first retreat. Go into it with an open mind. Keep mindfulness up for as much of your day as you can. Retreats give you an opportunity to really dig deep so don't be surprised if you end up digging up some real painful stuff, progress quickly through the insights or both... It is a wonderful opportunity, retreat. Make best use of it...

---

Hi everybody

Finally, the path is attained ..
It happened last thursday. Before that I had posted in Nikolais thread descriping my situation that there was no progress, no path or fruition.
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/36...ice+Notes?offset=140

ClaytonL reminded me of Kenneth`s quote which was really encouraging and made me to continue the practice. (A lot of metta for you Clayton
When the path occured, it wasnt really a big deal. Immediately the thought arose "was that it ?". I didnt thought that was it, because there was no bliss or great happines, which I have read people describing. But stil, something changed. Usually I would sit 1 hour and take half hour walking meditation but now after 40 minutes I didnt had desire to sit any more, nor to walk.
After I got home, something else happened (I think it was fruition). My mind was super quite. Not a single thought. My perception wasnt like before. There was ONLY the MIND knowing and the BODY. There was only SEEING, HEARING etc. No thoghts, words, labels etc. "I" went to a place in forest where I had been medtiating one year ago for the first time. Then thougts arose of how much effort,time I had put on it. How I have been meditating since then.

Friday, I didnt have desire for meditating and still wasnt sure what was happening. So I waited for Saturday and see what will happen. I also noticed that I was cycling.

Saturday: Usually I would take walking meditation to gain some concentration before sitting, but that wasnt necessary because I was already concentrated. So I sat and and found my self in A&P and went fast up to Equanimity, without any effort. Just watching . I thought a fruition would occur but then I fell down and up again. There was pressure on my nose and brow area. So I focused there. At a point I felt like I was sleepy.

(cont)

(cont)

My body was "waving" back and forth, and then *BLIP*. I suddenly felt energetic and light, which is one the reason that I am sure I have attained stream entry. I was so happy ..

Today in the moring after waking up I wanted to see what jhanas I had access to. Without any effort I went up to 4th jhana. I got disturbed by my sister when I was at high equanimity. But that didnt make frustrated.

This afternoon I got to the point when my body was "waving" and another *BLIP* happened. I wanted to see what would happen after. as I was in high equanimity then it turned to infinite space up to the crown and infinite consciousness. After that I fell back.

(cont)

(cont)

The reason why I am sure that I have attained the path is because:
- I have been through all nanas.
- I am cycling through them all the time. I can only notice whether I am in A&P, DN or Equanimity, but not in which nana.
- I have had only 3 fruition since then. It seems that I have no control.
- I have acces to 6 jhanas.
- My mind is clear.

I have no Idea what to do now. It seems that there is nothing more to do. Just fun, I guess? (haha)
Also, I had planned to attain the path next week in retreat ??

(Many thanks to Kenneth, ClaytonL, Ron and other who had answered my questions and encouraged me)

Sugato

It seems another 'path' dude in the house!!

Congratulations!! Is that what people say in these circumstances?

Enjoy....and power through to second path on retreat!

Sugato, congrats! So nice to see people getting somewhere and knowing what to do

Brilliant!!!!! They are starting to pop! I love this place! Well done Sugato! There is still so much more to do but I think you should chill for awhile, enjoy the afterglow. No need to push right away for the next path. The review period is a fun time. Enjoy it while it lasts. WOOOT!

And make a resolution, supposedly it is a very powerful time to make resolutions....arahatship asap for example!

Thanks sparqi, Chris and Nick (your thread was really inspiring).

Yeah, I wil have some fun (samadhi states) and enjoy it untill next week in retreat.

I would like to hear (or read) from Kenneth what he thinks and what is best thing to do.

"I have no Idea what to do now. It seems that there is nothing more to do. Just fun, I guess? (haha)
Also, I had planned to attain the path next week in retreat ??"

Man don't you hate it when you get path ahead of schedule? Ah... it warms my heart to see someone else getting it. I would echo Nick, I would continue to notice what strata come up... work on your concentration (I am finally getting around to it and wow is all I can say) Mostly enjoy life man. Walks in nature, good music, good food, good people. Just LIVE... I dunno some people might recommend a strong push... but you got escape velocity... I would take it easier for a few weeks. Keep sitting for sure though...

Clayton