2nd to 3rd

I was wondering if there is a definitive signature event that marks the transition from second to third path or is it a different process all together? I would also be interested if some of you would like to share your transition accounts?
Paul

I believe it is generally agreed that the 3rd path practitioner is able to access a Pure Land Jhana and/or NS a higher level fruition/cessation... I would be curious to hear people's accounts as well

I would very much like to know too as I seem to be going through some transitions myself.

Hey guys, there's no Big Bang heralded with trumpets

I did have a path fruition that I remember but it wasn't at all huge and/or remarkable. The real difference was in what Clayton has said - access to jhanas beyond the eighth, and access to NS.

"
Hey guys, there's no Big Bang heralded with trumpets

I did have a path fruition that I remember but it wasn't at all huge and/or remarkable. The real difference was in what Clayton has said - access to jhanas beyond the eighth, and access to NS.

"

Hi Chris,

Could you explain a little how you can access Nirodha samapati?

I seem to be coming across it but I seem to dip into it and then come out of it without much control of how long the cessation can last. It certainly takes a lot of concentration to allow it to happen.

Sure - I liken going there to falling backwards into a deep, dark well. After following the jhanic arc and after accessing the 8th jhana I focus on the area just behind my eyes and sort of "push" downward. What I see in my mind's eye is a deepening blackness, like a tunnel or a well, that seems to deepen with every breath. (In my experience all jhanic phenomena follow the breath and each has its own "handle" that one can grab with the breath and hold onto in order to deepen the state. NS is no different.) So I just keep the pressure on (pushing down behind my eyes) and the state just keeps deepening until I lose contact with all external phenomena. Ultimately, if I stay with it, everything just fades away and... poof! It's not a sharp, fast blip like a cessation. I can also control the experience, stopping and restarting it at just about any point.

It is the best sleep enhancer ever. It's also a great mood enhancer because even if I don't go all the way to the poof! I'm in a happy funk for quite some time afterward -- a giddy, "who gives a crap about any bad stuff" kind of thing. At first it was very, very difficult for me to access NS, and it still takes work though not as much. NS just sort of showed up for me one day as I was experimenting with jhanic states at the transition between second and third paths, although I had no idea what it was at the time.

Does that help, Nick?

Thanks Chris, that is real helpful.

I never tried "pushing" at that spot behind the eyes. Just tried it and it seems to speed it up. I was just sort of "wiggling" or tensing that spot by crossing my attention across it back and forth rapidly and at times just staring at it. But it seems if I keep a sense of pressure and push on it, it seems to press the right button. I'll keep at it. Yeh it really does leave you very chilled out and is a good mood enhancer for sure haha!. Kind of like having a permanent supply of happy drugs but all na-tur -al.

How long do you usually stay under, meaning how long does the cessation moment last for you?

I guess with practice it gets easier. I will see how it goes. Thanks for the advice.

I am noticing a lot of pressure around the third eye... usually I try to penetrate it. I will try to push downward and see what happens... Chris no big band? I kind of imagined you become an Anagami and later that day you are serenated by the rat pack in the atral plane for a few hours... ; )

"How long do you usually stay under, meaning how long does the cessation moment last for you?"

Nick, there is no cessation moment like a path or regular cessation. I'm not sure NS is a cessation at all. It's more like falling asleep by turning out the sensory lights, so I just wake up very refreshed after some period of time, usually measured in minutes or hours, depending. I've asked Kenneth these same questions you're now asking me and as I recall his answers they were more or less like mine, and NS is really not all that.

"... and later that day you are serenated by the rat pack in the atral plane for a few hours..."

I'm pretty slow on the uptake. I had to be told I'd made the transition. By Kenneth, on the phone as I was sitting in the lobby of a hotel in Boca Raton at a conference I was producing. My biggest question upon hearing the diagnosis was, "That's it? That's all there is!?"

Chris, I really like the way you describe nirodha samapatti. No hoo-hah, no jumping to conclusions, just simple descriptions and instructions.

Paul, my experience with the transition from 2nd to 3rd Path was similar to Chris's in that I can't remember an obvious transition event. That doesn't mean there wasn't one, it's just that there are so many interesting things that happen when you do this practice that it's not always easy to know which events correspond to which attainments. All I know for sure is that one day I was able to access the 1st Pure Land jhana and began to cultivate that. This did generally coincide with a significantly different way of experiencing my practice and the world, it's just that it was gradual rather than sudden. And it wasn't until perhaps 6 years after attaining the 1st Pure Land jhana that I finally found nirodha samapatti. That may be because I didn't actively go looking for it until that time. Before that, I didn't know the "rule" that says Pure Land jhana access equals the anagami attainment, so I thought I was still a sakadagami (2nd Path). There was a lot less information flowing around back then and we were all kind of stumbling around in the dark.

edit: typo

Thanks, Kenneth. I want to do a "back at ya" kind of thing here. You said:

"There was a lot less information flowing around back then and we were all kind of stumbling around in the dark."

Yes, and my guess is this lack of information caused folks to be a lot slower to progress, as measured in years. In contrast, someone like me, in the post MCTB Era (PME?), has a ton of data and comparisons and personal practice journals and other information to use, and also access to YOU, Kenneth Folk, and that I'm quite certain made a massive difference for me in terms of how long it took to move through the stages.

Hallelujah!

Clayton: you cracked me up with that 'rats serenading you in the astral-plane' thing.

I think Clayton said "Rat Pack" as in Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis Jr., not actual rodents

Oh I see.. Still funny as hell

Thanks Yadidb I do what I can. Thanks Chris for a unprecedentedly down to earth explanation of NS. I practiced pushing the pressure down after rising up the jhanic arch this evening. I felt a strong deepening and darkening of the visual field. No cutting off with all phenomenon--but of course i'm not worried about that. I appreciate your discussion about how your practice is woven against the backdrop of work and family Chris. It really is great to see.

" There was a lot less information flowing around back then and we were all kind of stumbling around in the dark."

I know I have said this recently--but this community is such a cool thing. I am positive that the candor has allowed many to progress at a much faster pace than average...

"
" There was a lot less information flowing around back then and we were all kind of stumbling around in the dark."

I know I have said this recently--but this community is such a cool thing. I am positive that the candor has allowed many to progress at a much faster pace than average...
"

I so agree!
And it's not just getting clear information, the best part is if I go off on some tangent that really isn't effective or correct then Kenneth or someone else here will let me know right away, which eliminates a lot of potential wasted time.
In just the past year at least four or five times I've written or said something to Kenneth that I was convinced was true and necessary and he's just kindly, but bluntly said something like "that's not necessary."
Even then I don't have to agree with him, I can still find out for myself whether he is right or wrong but it is so great to have an experienced, honest guide.

Thanks Chris,

While I had some time on the bus to work and in between teaching classes i endeavored to try out your technique of pushing at that third eye spot. It seemed to work but then it also seemed to create tension in my head until I realized that you had said "push down". I was pushing from front to back and it didn't seem to take me all the way. So i tried pushing down on that spot, mentally creating tension there with a downward movement and that is THE button to press. My goodness. The mind sinks immediately into darkness and things start flickering off. Eventually the mind kind of hits a spot where the cessation of everything occurs. That's kind of why I ask about the length of the cessation moment. It certainly has a different feel to a normal fruition, the whole sinking and unsinking from it and the after affects are amazing. Quite the meditative reward. Is there any use for doing it often apart from being a good mood enhancer and help with restful sleeping? Can it help with progress? I have heard someone say it changes you in drastic ways. Is this anyone's experience?

I was just pushing down right now and I stopped the mind just before it goes out and the intense pleasurable vibrations spread throughout the body like no other. I feel like the chakras on my feet are blasting out waves of energy.

What a trip!

There are a lot of very pleasurable and intense things available in the realms of concentration, Nick. But answer your own question based on what you know right now -- it's a jhana-like experience. What does that tell you about how much it can affect your progress? What changes? What do you want it to do for you, and why?

"
There are a lot of very pleasurable and intense things available in the realms of concentration, Nick. But answer your own question based on what you know right now -- it's a jhana-like experience. What does that tell you about how much it can affect your progress? What changes? What do you want it to do for you, and why?

"

Yeh, just to make the dark nights a little more pleasurable I guess. Point taken. Just more pleasure to note as well. Thanks Chris.

That said, live it up, man!

"There are a lot of very pleasurable and intense things available in the realms of concentration, Nick. But answer your own question based on what you know right now -- it's a jhana-like experience. What does that tell you about how much it can affect your progress? What changes? What do you want it to do for you, and why?-cmarti"

Chris Marti for president!

I had a similar experience early on (prior to formal meditating, after a psychedelic experience which lead me to buddhist practices) sometime (a week or two) after a real big dip into the unconsciousness (psilocybin - 1st and only time). I had the most realistic lifelike dream I had had up to that point. It had none of the characteristics of a dream and when I woke up it was a bit of a revelation into the reality of dreams. Anyhow, after I woke up from that, I closed my eyes and noticed what seemed like a tunnel that when I focuses on it everything settled into a single point. It was very pleasant and I never could get it to happen again.

I had a similar thing happen quite a while later in the bath and it seemed like a lot longer of a time had passed than should have (saw the tunnel thing, when I "woke up" the water was cold). I was sitting up the whole time. I was doing a good bit of formless practice at the time and would occasionally have weird experiences like this.

The pushing down comment made me think of it because that's what I naturally did when the tunnel like sensation came on and it was like my focus moved forward into it and then there was just a uniform, nice but mostly featureless state.

"I had a similar experience early on (prior to formal meditating, after a psychedelic experience which lead me to buddhist practices) sometime (a week or two) after a real big dip into the unconsciousness (psilocybin - 1st and only time). I had the most realistic lifelike dream I had had up to that point. It had none of the characteristics of a dream and when I woke up it was a bit of a revelation into the reality of dreams. Anyhow, after I woke up from that, I closed my eyes and noticed what seemed like a tunnel that when I focuses on it everything settled into a single point. It was very pleasant and I never could get it to happen again.

I had a similar thing happen quite a while later in the bath and it seemed like a lot longer of a time had passed than should have (saw the tunnel thing, when I "woke up" the water was cold). I was sitting up the whole time. I was doing a good bit of formless practice at the time and would occasionally have weird experiences like this.

The pushing down comment made me think of it because that's what I naturally did when the tunnel like sensation came on and it was like my focus moved forward into it and then there was just a uniform, nice but mostly featureless state."

Mumuwu, there are many interesting jhanic states and infinite variations on them. What you are describing, though, is not nirodha samapatti. It's important to make the distinction, because nirodha samapatti is only available to anagamis (yogis who have attained 3rd Path) or beyond, so the claim of nirodha samapatti is tantamount to a claim of 3rd Path.

Indeed.

I was trying to convey that the tunnel description reminded me of an experience I had at one point as well as the time loss sort of thing as well as the bearing down. I kind of get the feeling that I might have been moving into access concentration now that I look back on it. But no, I certainly don't want to make any claims to anything like 3rd path. I'm very green, and just getting the feel for the ground floor.

Seeing a tunnel is pretty common. Once, while playing baseball in college, I was up to bat and was hit in the head by a pitch. What did I see as I was passing out? Yep, a tunnel!