Psychadelics and awakening.

Hello.

This is a question on the topic of psychadelics and the process of meditation towards awakening.

1. With the clear knowledge that any induced chemical state is temporary and subject to dissolution, how do you see psychadelics in relationship to your practice? It seems the most frequent story is one of origination - I took something, I tripped and saw reality as fluid, unitive, or A&P, and I eventually found my way into Buddhism. Along the way into the path of liberation, has the use of psychadelics been put away because, as the saying goes, once you get the message, hang up the phone? Can there be a skillful intention of ingesting psychadelics beyond entertainment or distraction towards learning or understanding? Or not? Would such efforts be limited to certain constraints or pre-path positional thinking?

2. Having been aware that pyschadelics can mimic certain mental states, how accurate can they be in portraying them? In the context that you can certainly do harm to self and others while in these states, experience meditating can hopefully in the very least still your actions so you create no negative karma, and the following appear to be possible experiences while tripping with a modicum of relating to awareness of experience:

> The ego dissolves in a sensation someone described as, the air coming out of the balloon. It can also arise in a funny fit out of a seemingly random reactive pattern. Physical and mental sensations appear to be easily objectifiable, separate from you.

> Direct perception is available, with mindfulness. This can be funny. This can also be sad. The Tibetan saying, Emptiness is compassion, appears to be especially true.

> If this were the three yana system, the hiniyana and the mahayana would be covered above. I'm not sure how the vajryavana could play out here as I'm not familiar with it. My only theory is, based on the prior two, that the third would be to fall in love with each and every moment.

Whoosh. Back to the real world. Look at all of these thoughts and habits returning. A voice suggests, if I meditate, these states may eventually open up to me of my own volition. They seem to correlate with the various texts and sources on what awakening is. But, really, how relatable are they in the end? There's no control group to compare to.

Thank you.

This rang true for me

"When you get the message... hang up the phone"
- Alan Watts

I had one psychedelic experience with psilocybin. I've got to say, I really don't regret it in any way, and I do believe I wouldn't be here on this forum talking to you if it hadn't been for that experience.

That being said, I don't think I'd ever do them again (at least I won't ever seek it out).

Meditation is better.

"Can there be a skillful intention of ingesting psychadelics beyond entertainment or distraction towards learning or understanding?"

Yes, it's all in the intention, expectation, and attitude. Note that the same is true even of meditation: you could meditate to be dazzled by some fireworks or you could meditate with the intention of getting something deeper out of it.

Psychedelics are not a necessary part of a spiritual path but they can be of benefit. Of course they can also be an unnecessary distraction or even destructive, so buyer beware.

I tried some many years ago, before I became a really earnest spiritual seeker. The primary benefit is that having experiences like this demonstrated to me in a very vivid and powerful way the malleability and potential of the mind, and that there was more to this whole reality thing than I had initially thought. This planted the seeds that began to grow in earnest when I found that the same sort of things could be cultivated by meditation. Another benefit to practice for me has been that I have been able to access states similar in some ways to those I had experienced on psychedelics, primarily the experience of recognizing the bare fact of existence itself. I feel that access has been made easier by having already experienced these things in the past, although that feeling may be mistaken. These are valuable experiences in and of themselves and also are encouraged by many traditions to be cultivated as part of the spiritual path.

Again, these experiences are potentially of benefit if approached in the proper way, but are not necessary and are potentially damaging and destabilizing too. If you choose to pursue them, pursue them with the proper attitude of respect and caution. But also recognize that they can only take you so far, and are certainly no substitute for a dedicated practice.

Hmmm.... I think this could become an interesting topic. I have a fairly extensive history with this stuff, similar to what you wrote. I took em, got into buddhism, wasn't progressing, kept taking them, wasn't progressing, stopped ingesting all drugs and finally started making progress. I think different people relate to these things differently. Every once and a while I think it would be fun to take a hit of some LSD or something, but at the end of the day its just a distraction, playing with sensations and prefering some over others. I can't see it as more than that now. My advice would be to pursue awakening will everything you got... psychedllics fade and can leave scars on the mind, liberation just keeps giving...

"I took em, got into buddhism," yeah, pretty much my story also.

"My advice would be to pursue awakening will everything you got... psychedllics fade and can leave scars on the mind, liberation just keeps giving..."-ClaytonL

U da man, Clayton! That is first-rate advice. I got my first glimpse through LSD, but have since gone infinitely further by harnessing the naked power of my own mind.

OK, so spreading the net a little wider, would legal substances such as tobacco in a hookah, or alcohol also fit within this paradigm of distraction from the present moment? Or as the intention is no longer mind-opening but more mundane, of relaxation, diversion, and entertainment, is separate and more acceptable? I'm seeing this as either a mindfulness exercise of staying present, or a morality exercise by allowing myself to partake given this context (somehow, this feels correct if you're with friends or at an event and simply not being uptight).

An interpretation of the No Drinking precept I've heard is to not take any substances which impair your faculties to lapses of judgment and ignorance, which can mean you can smoke, or drink, but only if done so very mindfully. And, I'm guessing if you can't, you either abstain when possible or know your limits when you decide to partake. But that sounds like it can be applied with any substance, such as psychadelics if not used solely as a faux-spiritual tool.

How do you approach this? It feels very tied to attachments and clarity of actions.

Think of it this way...

If you are drunk all the time, you won't be able to meditate very well. If you are addicted to smoking and are unable to get cigarettes for some reason, you won't be able to focus very well on the task of meditating (there are ways around this, noting outloud for example).

I see the sila practice as a foundation to support right mindfulness and right concentration. After you attain all 4 paths (which I have not) you can spend more time on sila, but having done that (I think) will really help in all areas of your life (more-so than willing yourself to keep precepts).

I've smoked plenty of cigars (and weed) while progressing along the path of insight (I do neither now). Kenneth (apparently) likes to indulge in a bit of wine or scotch in the evenings (which is actually recommended by doctors for your health I might add).

It seems to be a big deal if you make a big deal out of it (scruples)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scruples .

According to my experience, nearly all people who take psychedelics are not able to integrate the experience they had into their daily life. The take, they trip, they fall back. People who propagate psychedelics as a way of spiritual path usually do not mention that it's actually the (psychological, emotional, intellectual etc.) integration of the experience that makes most of the difference - not the experience itself. Thus, using psychedelics as a spiritual path, often the focus is wrong: It just is not sufficient to have extraordinary experiences, you definitely need more than this to really change from the inside. For instance, you need a sound framework (like the Buddhist teachings), you need a community of people who support you and in whom you trust, you need a technically coherent explanation of what you actually experienced during your trip. Maybe if there was such a community or line of teaching (as described in the somewhat colourful books of Carlos Castaneda), then taking psychedelics might actually be a powerful path - maybe even too powerful. And even in Carlos Castaneda's books, Castaneda was more or less given psychedelics only on the beginning of the path to awake his ability "to see". Actually, there seem to happen many more accidents of a psychotic nature when psychedelics are in play than with meditation practice.

Your comment on the integration process reminded me of Pyschadelic Information Theory by James L Kent. He uses signal theory to explain how and why psychadelics act as they do on our experiences, and the role shamans played in using psychadelics.

psychedelic-information-theory.com/Psych...c-Information-Theory

Here's a nifty signal theory poster from the alpha version of the text.
images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/7de/...15-9e53-5008799399e7

What follows is PIT's section on integration.

Internal Integration
For many reasons there is loss of fidelity in the transmission of hallucinatory information from imagination into memory.7 Like a dream, memories of the psychedelic session must be compressed into manageable snippets that stand out within the larger wash of information. Although psychedelic hallucinations fade quickly they can have lasting emotional impact. How each person deals with the content of each experience is unique to their world view. Some people may choose to ignore content derived from the psychedelic experience; others may cherish anything they can remember and will scrutinize each vision in pursuit of higher metaphysical truth. During this process the information generated during the psychedelic trip is encoded into personal memory by forging and testing new synaptic pathways. During post-psychedelic integration the subject may begin to re- assess and modify personal beliefs and behaviors. Cryptic and intense visions may be recalled over and over, or the subject may dwell obsessively on novel feelings experienced during their trip. The subject will typically review their psychedelic trip and create a lasting narrative of the journey, including what they experienced and what they learned. Integration is where the subject decides what happened in the experience. The content of the hallucination is not as important as the process by which the subject takes that content and shapes it into lasting memories, beliefs, and behaviors; this is the process of encoding psychedelic information into synaptic networks. Content generation without behavioral integration is essentially meaningless, so the true testament of psychedelic power is not the ability to produce visions, but the ability to imprint new information and transform belief.

Apologies for the triple post. I'm trying to stay within the word count limit.

As interesting and fascinating as this is, it's beginning to appear obvious to me that little of this seems directly relevant to meditation and how we relate to our experiences. The only thing that comes to mind is that psychadelics simply seem to break the "ego." This seems useful if it's a novel or cathartic experience in action, and in that respect distinct from meditation '“ I think. It's starting to seem that there's less overlap between these two than I thought, from a developmental point of view.

A wise observation. Ken Wilber has spoke about this issue as well. He writes that although they may open the door he knows of absolutely no one who has had a legitimate Insight(path) experience while on a psychedelic. I know when I discovered psychedelics I thought I had found the keys to the Kingdom. But at the end of the day its just a hall of mirrors. You can end up chasing your own ass for years... (I did) For the record not all who chose to abstain are uptight. In fact the most uptight people I have ever meet are my friends who used to distribute...

But anyway, not to be disparaging just sharing my own experience. Glad to have you on the forum, hope you find something that interest you...

I did psychedelics with the specific intent of demolishing the ego. Once I experienced that, or whatever you would call it, being everything, being the eyes of the world, seeing other people as yourself, getting the joke, I kind of felt done with it, but who knows. Back to living. For me I had to do it, but the brute force of it is pretty brutal. And everyone here knows all this stuff already, it's just a glimpse of being it rather than merely understanding it intellectually. I feel as if it tore down or at least weakened a few walls in me, but then again I'm still hanging out in equanimity. Catching a glimpse of the ox, if that's what it was, is only the 3rd oxherding picture anyway.

"A wise observation. Ken Wilber has spoke about this issue as well. He writes that although they may open the door he knows of absolutely no one who has had a legitimate Insight(path) experience while on a psychedelic. I know when I discovered psychedelics I thought I had found the keys to the Kingdom. But at the end of the day its just a hall of mirrors. You can end up chasing your own ass for years... (I did) For the record not all who chose to abstain are uptight. In fact the most uptight people I have ever meet are my friends who used to distribute...

But anyway, not to be disparaging just sharing my own experience. Glad to have you on the forum, hope you find something that interest you... "

I had my first A&P on ayahuasca (a blend of an MAOI and DMT , both from plants). This was after months of a somewhat steady concentration practice and various yoga practices. During the Aya experience I was in the middle of the trip and a quick "click" and I saw all sensations in the 3c's for the first time, and simply watching these being "not me" was remarkable. I kept looking until things started to speed up and arising and passing and then there was a bright light, bliss wave and I immediately fell into a recognizable dark night... overwhelming sadness. I came down from the aya and noticed a constant heavy tension in my head the next day and for weeks after this.

Got into Equanimity and had my first Path moment a few weeks later using regular noting.

Got into Arising and Passing event of 2nd Path with normal noting... stayed in 3rd and 4th nana for a few weeks and then had my first psychedelic Cacti experience using Peruvian Torch (similar to Peyote, it has mescaline in it)... and meditated with it, got into a solid 4th nana and stayed in this for only 5 minutes and then "blip"... 2nd Path on cacti... permanent changes noted days after.

cont.

"I had my first A&P on ayahuasca (a blend of an MAOI and DMT , both from plants). This was after months of a somewhat steady concentration practice and various yoga practices. During the Aya experience I was in the middle of the trip and a quick "click" and I saw all sensations in the 3c's for the first time, and simply watching these being "not me" was remarkable. I kept looking until things started to speed up and arising and passing and then there was a bright light, bliss wave and I immediately fell into a recognizable dark night... overwhelming sadness. I came down from the aya and noticed a constant heavy tension in my head the next day and for weeks after this.

Got into Equanimity and had my first Path moment a few weeks later using regular noting.

Got into Arising and Passing event of 2nd Path with normal noting... stayed in 3rd and 4th nana for a few weeks and then had my first psychedelic Cacti experience using Peruvian Torch (similar to Peyote, it has mescaline in it)... and meditated with it, got into a solid 4th nana and stayed in this for only 5 minutes and then "blip"... 2nd Path on cacti... permanent changes noted days after.

cont."

got my way from A&P to mid-high equanimity of 3rd Path just noting... did an ayahuasca ceremony (it was actually the Faitio, where we make the medicine) and had a very powerful "blip" without even meditating or noting... 3rd Path.... very big change... noticed pure land jhanas the day after the ceremony.
Kept going with noting, but the game was all different at 3rd path...
One day I was sitting, noting the center of experience and the knot just undid itself, I noticed a change, but only after a few days had passed after the change did I know it was 4th Path...biggest change is the ever present calm, and the centerless ness of self.
psychedelics, gave me Path moments, and got me into this game in the first place.

I constantly wonder if my experience can be duplicated... and wonder about how psychedelics and the permanent changes that occur in the brain during vipassana relate to each other. I do know that the Pineal Gland, which is the gland in the center of our head, is responsible for endogenous DMT, which is what is found in ayahuasca, and I believe that certain organic entheogens such as cacti or mushrooms allow for the natural release of DMT if you ingest a high enough dose.

I was also doing a number of other practices that I believe helped make the vipassana game effortless (to an extent) such as maintaining a fruitarian diet, doing lots of yoga and running, pranayama, living in Hawaii seems to carry this natural vibration that is conducive to awakening (imo) .

Anyways, hope this helps, Namaste!

Hello Eden212,

Thanks for sharing! I too had my first opening through psychedelics in 2003. More specifically, 5-meo-dmt. There was a pronounced dark night that followed shortly afterwards.

Since then I've experimented with mushrooms, and LSD, among others. It is my observation that LSD combined with mindfulness can mimic or lead to direct perception & jhana-like states. More specifically, the type of visual and tactile hallucinations I can induce via strong / heavy concentration are very similar to those that I experienced in the past from the tryptamine family of psychedelics. It seems reasonable to suggest that there may be a relationship between the mechanism of action of these tryptamines, and endogenous DMT that may be released through certain meditation practices.

It seems to me that entheogens can play a powerful role in inducing openings and compelling people to become seekers. There is a long history in many shamanic traditions of using them in this manner. I've often wondered if they could be used to supplement a strong practice to further accelerate progress. It is clear to me that due to the powerful destabilizing nature of some of these substances, a strong foundation of practice should be established first, and that experienced guidance and knowledge of maps could play an important role as well. Would you mind sharing a general timeline between your first opening and fourth path for you, eden212?

metta!

Justin

"got my way from A&P to mid-high equanimity of 3rd Path just noting... did an ayahuasca ceremony (it was actually the Faitio, where we make the medicine) and had a very powerful "blip" without even meditating or noting... 3rd Path.... very big change... noticed pure land jhanas the day after the ceremony.
Kept going with noting, but the game was all different at 3rd path...
One day I was sitting, noting the center of experience and the knot just undid itself, I noticed a change, but only after a few days had passed after the change did I know it was 4th Path...biggest change is the ever present calm, and the centerless ness of self.
psychedelics, gave me Path moments, and got me into this game in the first place. "

Hi Eden,

I always ask people not to make unsubstantiated claims here at KFD. Instead, I would invite you to carefully document your progress on a separate practice thread and see if the rest of the community agrees with you about what you are calling 1st through 4th Path. This kind of community vetting is intended to keep KFD from becoming a free-for-all of unsubstantiated claims.

My own experience in working with hundreds of students is that while psychedelics can sometimes lead to the A&P and maybe even (in one case I know of) stream entry, I've never seen anyone get 2nd, 3rd, or 4th Path while under the influence. Let's make sure we are comparing apples and apples.

Here is what I know for sure: people are consistently moving through the progress of insight and the 4 Paths as defined here without using substances. If anything, substances tend to distract and confuse people and slow their progress.

Finally, I would like everyone to be very careful not to promote the use of illegal substances on this forum. If that seems to be happening, I will politely and regretfully close this thread.

Thanks for understanding.

Kenneth

"Hello Eden212,

Thanks for sharing! I too had my first opening through psychedelics in 2003. More specifically, 5-meo-dmt. There was a pronounced dark night that followed shortly afterwards.

Since then I've experimented with mushrooms, and LSD, among others. It is my observation that LSD combined with mindfulness can mimic or lead to direct perception & jhana-like states. More specifically, the type of visual and tactile hallucinations I can induce via strong / heavy concentration are very similar to those that I experienced in the past from the tryptamine family of psychedelics. It seems reasonable to suggest that there may be a relationship between the mechanism of action of these tryptamines, and endogenous DMT that may be released through certain meditation practices.

It seems to me that entheogens can play a powerful role in inducing openings and compelling people to become seekers. There is a long history in many shamanic traditions of using them in this manner. I've often wondered if they could be used to supplement a strong practice to further accelerate progress. It is clear to me that due to the powerful destabilizing nature of some of these substances, a strong foundation of practice should be established first, and that experienced guidance and knowledge of maps could play an important role as well. Would you mind sharing a general timeline between your first opening and fourth path for you, eden212?

metta!

Justin"

The first time I had experiences similar to the various nana's that Daniel Ingram talks about in his book (as well as a large majority of users on this forum), was after several months of moderate concentration meditation (on the breath) along side a regular yoga sadhana. Had similar experiences to the various jhanas, specifically I had instances of one pointedness, bliss, brightness during a breath oriented concentration practice.

cont.

cont.
It wasnt until I found Daniel's book, did some of this meditation stuff come into perspective. Sat on the stuff described in the book for a few months, and during that time I was participating in Ayahuasca ceremonies. One night while drinking the ayahuasca tea I had a very unitive experience complete with brightness, rapture, fluid flowing reality. This is what I would consider my first direct experience with stuff described in the various stages of insight.

I will need to start a separate thread with a more detailed timeline of various experiences.

"I will need to start a separate thread with a more detailed timeline of various experiences. "

I look forward to seeing it!

Disclaimer: Just to emphasize Kenneth's point about not promoting the use of illegal substances - I do not encourage or recommend that anyone pursue this route as it is far too unstable and unpredictable. Yes, there's a long shamanic and yogic tradition of the use of entheogens ("God within") but bear in mind that the majority of spiritual seekers do not have access to the rigorous training and map systems which occur in these traditions. Hallucinogens/entheogens can f*ck you up good and proper, and also, without considerable training and direct instruction, they are unlikely to lead one any further than the A&P. If you do choose to explore this route then remember that what you may experience may not indicative of spiritual progress. Reality-testing is essential.

I spent quite a few years exploring this route, which is known in certain circles as 'chemgnosis', and now consider it to be a waste of time in comparison to good ol' fashioned cushion-time. I agree with what Justin is saying about the tryptamine family, the insights gained by those I know who have explored this specific family (e.g. DMT, 5-Meo-DMT, and the research chemicals described in T.I.K.H.A.L. by Alexander Shulgin) along with my own experiences suggest that there's something of a synergy here. Perhaps it's due to the way these substances produce similar chemical releases in the brain to those found in high-level meditation practice? I don't know enough about the ins and outs of the physiological effects but it's certainly an interesting, albeit potentially controversial area.

How it would work alongside strong practice is really hard to say, but undoubtedly the increased mental strength arrived at through meditation can prevent one from being dragged into a kaleidoscope of their own nightmares.

(Cont)

(Cont)

Insights is almost always overlooked by most casual psychonauts, but in my experience it is possible to gain insight while in an altered state of consciousness by basically applying vipassana to it. It's similar to the visualization techniques of vajrayana, eventually you come to realize that everything experienced there is subject to the 3C's, which is something I think many who decide to walk this path could do with learning as otherwise you end up with people holding onto transient mental constructs and false-beliefs due to some emotionally impactful vision.

All in all, much as it can be great fun to trip balls and watch the walls breathe, it's far more satisfying and safe to come by these same effects via meditation. It is entirely possible but it takes a bit longer, and strong concentration states, particularly 4th jhana, are a doorway to this which is much safer (but not entirely without risk for some) although perhaps not as immediate and clear. If someone were to choose to explore this fast and furious route then that is their choice and the opinions I state here are not representative of KFD, Kenneth himself or any other yogi here. The best advice I could give to anyone looking into this is to educate yourself thoroughly before even considering it, there's plenty of information available and no excuses for stupidity. You need to know the risks, you wouldn't go mountain climbing without knowing what's involved would you?

My opinion: Enthogens and hallucinogens have their uses, my brother says that an intense LSD experience ended his addiction to heroin and it seems that a lot of us on here have had awakenings through their use. However, having spent a long time now exploring different routes to awakening I can honestly say that meditation and the techniques taught by Kenneth will undoubtedly lead you to more profound and long-lasting changes than tripping will.