synaesthesia and insight---help please!

I have what seems to be best described as a non-classical form of synaesthesia, and am having trouble figuring out how to separate the "actual" experience from all the affective stuff that surrounds it.

The basic problem is twofold:

1) there are a range of experiences I have which are potentially synaesthetic, but (as often happens with synaesthetes) I have no idea how many experiences in this range are actually shared by normal people, and

2) for clearly synaesthetic experiences, the actual experience sometimes happens in a different mental "place" than I would expect it to (e.g. synaesthetic visual experience isn't projected onto the external world, but isn't in the same place that one imagines and daydreams either), which is hard to know how to look at, whereas the affective distortions are easy to see (i.e. in the same "place' as imagination).

This leads to the consequence that

3) There are experiences I have where the affect is in a different modality than would typically be expected, but the actual experience is unobservable, and I don't know where to look, in particular whether to look for some nonstandard "place" the actual experience is (if it's synaesthetic), or look more closely at the senses in the locations they normally present (if it's not).

This is an important problem for me to solve because there is a ton of this affective stuff in my experience and it really needs to be seen clearly, whereas right now the amount of murkiness that surrounds it is really extreme. Unlike what I understand about typical synaesthetes, my experience is rarely easy for me to observe; the observation is always muddled somehow, even though the experiences are ever-present and affecting the rest of my mental world. Like some tickle inside yourself that you can't quite find, but which itches all the time anyway. (cont)

(cont)

So, here are two examples of things I experience which are potentially synaesthetic...please let me know if *you* experience them or not, and whether you have any form of synaesthesia, and we'll go from there.

1) When I look at a ceiling fan's blades spinning and follow the movement, there is an affective experience of spinning inside of 'me', a kinaesthetic feeling, which is typically deeply unpleasant. (not in the sense of causing nausea / vertigo from the motion, just unpleasant in itself)

2a) When I watch an object in the visual field move, there is an affective experience of that object making a sound, sort of analogous to the "whoosh!" an object would make moving through air rapidly, but very soft and not dependent on there being an actual sound, but dependent on the kind of motion perhaps and the kind of object. (neutral or unpleasant)

2b) When I move my head in relation to a bunch of objects in the visual field and keep attention on those objects, there is an affective experience of sound corresponding to the shifting of perspective, sort of like one would imagine "bloooooooooop" sounds, but like 2a, very soft. (neutralish, interesting, often comical)

Those are the things that are eating away at me. (cont)

(cont) In case you're interested, as for examples of what appears to be genuine synaesthesia:

1) Almost every sound, especially music, and especially clanging sounds or stacatto sounds (like birds chirping) appears to produce affective visual experience (with variable vedana), and also produces an actual visual experience in a "place" that isn't the external world and isn't the imagination (fascinating).

2) Potentially lots of things (unclear?), but music in particular, produce affective kinaesthetic (?) experiences of motion, twisting, entwinement, etc. (deeply attractive but not "pleasurable"), and occasionally I can see the actual experience, which appears to be a sensation of movement or contortion in my body or in some kind of body-that-isn't-there (fascinating).

For example, when I saw this painting by Picasso, the contorted posture of the figure on the right reminded me of a little musical phrase from a song I was listening to a bit before: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/63/P...assacre_in_Korea.jpg

These two things are linked somehow but it's unclear. Again, the problem is that there's some kind of murkiness pervading all these experiences. For these two, it varies over time. Some days, things are clearer. and some days, I'm confused about all of it.

When these two forms of synaesthesia are extremely clear, the experience has a world-transcending, wondrous, almost religious quality to it. I suspect they're only extremely clear when I'm near a PCE.

OK, any info about whether the experiences I asked about correspond to anything y'all experience would be *so* appreciated!

Does this predate or postdate your mediation practice? It's not clear to me from your comments. So... it's hard to tell if you're saying this stuff is practice related or not. This makes a huge difference, IMHO. I've had a few similar experiences which were quite clearly connected to my practice but the effects were short lived, measured in minutes or hours, maybe a day or two. Never longer.

Also, I'm confused because your comments a few days ago were so positive, being all about how gratified and happy you are due to your practice. I'm a bit surprised that you've never mentioned this stuff before and it very clearly does/will affect your practice, how you pursue it, report its effects here, and so on. If everything is so murky how can it also be so clear?

These are experiences I've had my whole life, but meditation has given me a tiny bit more clarity about them.

The "world-transcending, wondrous, almost religious quality" of the two forms of synaesthesia I described presenting clearly, predates any serious meditation I ever did.

"
Also, I'm confused because your comments a few days ago were so positive, being all about how gratified and happy you are due to your practice. I'm a bit surprised that you've never mentioned this stuff before and it very clearly does/will affect your practice, how you pursue it, report its effects here, and so on. If everything is so murky how can it also be so clear?

"

Well, I *am* gratified and happy! This is just something I realized that needs a lot more clarity, which I've somehow not spent any time working with. Nothing's changed for me other than a new perspective on what's next. Maybe the tone in which I wrote this post was misleading; my bad.

It never occurs to many synaesthetes to talk about these kinds of things (or even to recognize that they might be different than other people), because the bare fact of synaesthetic experience doesn't have a sign next to it that says *THIS IS DIFFERENT* or *THIS IS SIGNIFICANT*. They're just regular experiences.

I have very little clarity about the actual experiences. The clearest parts are always the affects. Synaesthetic affects are just as clear to me as regular affects. I didn't realize until recently that e.g. getting clarity about what an actual "normal" visual experience is, was not doing anything at all for the actual synaesthetic visual experiences. And doing that is hard because, as I said, they don't always present in the expected "place" that the sensory modality in question happens. And there are lots of experiences I have that I'm totally unclear on, both with respect to what they are, and with respect to whether they're synaesthetic or whether normal people have them...hence the post.

EDIT: The ways that these experiences affect my life is clearest when looking not at meditation, but at things like my musical or artistic tastes.

Okay, I get that. It also may explain some of the things I have, frankly, wondered about and questioned you on in regard to your practice and how you report on it.

Also, I've said very little about these experiences in my practice thread because, in general, it has very little relevance to anyone reading about my practice.

Chris, would you comment specifically on what the experience of looking at a moving fan (etc.) is like for you?

By strange conicidence I have noticed synesthaestia effects in practice today. In my case they have no prior occurence and it is very clear they are to do with my practice. They also mainly occur with eyes closed. They sound much more moderate than what you describe. They are I think more to do with the way the sense bases somehow mutually condition each other. For example I put my attention at a sense door in the sense of taking it as a whole and actualising it but loads goes on in my visual field, or in the internal tactile sense.
Like you this is somewhat confusing for me.
I have tried to resolve it by just putting keeping the attention on actualizing a single sense door whatever is arising elsewhere. This stops me chasing affect from sense door to sense door. by staying at a single sense door eventually the dependently arising flux and affect fades and ceases. From time to time I change sense door to sense door.
Seems to work ok.

Richard, what happens when you look at a moving ceiling fan, or a visual object moving in front of you, or you move your head in relation to visual objects close by?

EDIT: In the case of temporary synaesthesia it might be able to be resolved by focusing on one sense only, but my experience of stuff crossing modalities is completely involuntary. I can stop paying attention to it, but I can't stop it. (I think this is what you mean by "resolve" but I may be misunderstanding you.)

By the way, guys...when I made this post I intended it to be a purely practice-oriented one. I'm not especially interested in discussing synaesthesia in the abstract; I want to figure out what's up with some specific things in my experience to hopefully get a better idea of how to actualize them. So, I'd like to ask everyone who responds to make sure that their post includes a comparison of their own personal experience to mine with respect to the experiences I asked about, which I'll reproduce here for reference:



1) When I look at a ceiling fan's blades spinning and follow the movement, there is an affective experience of spinning inside of 'me', a kinaesthetic feeling, which is typically deeply unpleasant. (not in the sense of causing nausea / vertigo from the motion, just unpleasant in itself)

2a) When I watch an object in the visual field move, there is an affective experience of that object making a sound, sort of analogous to the "whoosh!" an object would make moving through air rapidly, but very soft and not dependent on there being an actual sound, but dependent on the kind of motion perhaps and the kind of object. (neutral or unpleasant)

2b) When I move my head in relation to a bunch of objects in the visual field and keep attention on those objects, there is an affective experience of sound corresponding to the shifting of perspective, sort of like one would imagine "bloooooooooop" sounds, but like 2a, very soft. (neutralish, interesting, often comical)

When I do what you suggest in post 10 it all seems normal.
What I have expereinced is like this: with eyes closed, and quite concentrated.
I attend to the ear and see sounds as swirls of colour and luminosity. It is if the ear field is filed with sights rather than sounds.
I attend to sensations in the chest and expreince them as sounds or sights.
What I am describing is practice induced and much milder then what you described.
My point about staying at one sense door at a time was that it resolved the confusion about what to attend to, not the synathasesia (bugger of a word to spell!).
eg; I stay with the auditory field and actualise that whether it appears as touch or sight and in that way simplify the practice.

"When I do what you suggest in post 10 it all seems normal."

Hehe, I don't know what "normal" means here. Remember, I've never had my own experience be any other way. I used to be fascinated by watching the ceiling fan in my room when I was a kid, because I thought it was interesting for 'me' to spin (apparently it wasn't unpleasant back then?); for a long time, I just assumed that everyone had these kinds of experiences and that was "normal", not some kind of special experience, no different from being able to see colors with your eyes.

In fact, the experience of 2b is something I never even thought about until a few years ago (as it's very subtle and hard to discern), let alone considered as a possible instance of synaesthesia.

So, please explicitly say what your experiences in these cases are.

This answered my questions about 2a and 2b pretty well: www.klab.caltech.edu/~saenz/hearing-motion.html . (Explanation here: scienceblogs.com/neurophilosophy/2008/08..._of_synaesthesia.php )

Can anyone help me with 1? I'm not confident that non-meditators will be able to accurately assess their own experience, and am *extremely* hesistant to talk about this condition outside of an internet forum (in person it would sound to many people like "my brain is f*cked up!'; people aren't always very understanding). I see few alternatives besides asking on this forum, because we talk about all kinds of weird experiences as it is, and we're all in this together.

for the things that you are unsure whether they are 'being' or not - do those sensations imply space or time in any way? if so then they are likely 'being', as in a PCE there are no such sensations - those are affective sensations.

also just try assuming they are 'real' sensations ('being') and see what happens. then try assuming they are actual sensations and see what happens.

further, this seems to be a point of identity/attachment, so look at those things as well - why is this causing 'you' to react? that'll be something to look at

EDIT: about your particular examples, i don't think i experience those things. however, i do notice that 'being' seems to manifest in an analogous way across all the senses. that is, for example, i always have sensations of pressure or of blanking out in my head - like large rough areas that i know are 'being' and am working on chipping away. if i tune in properly to sound, i'll notice little tingling bits of sound, which i think correspond to the grainy touch-sensations in the head. visually, parts of the visual field will be slightly blacked out, like there are spots in there, though i won't notice it until i'm looking for it. further if i get really blazed, the visual field will be overlaid with black spots very vividly, with a large black one in the center (not fully black, but blended into the rest) and other stuff around there. i think this is all 'being' manifesting in different sense-doors, though analogously (black gray spot corresponds to pressure in head). (similar with taste, when blazed, i won't be able to taste anything in the center of my tongue - pretty weird).

not sure if that's related. but look at 'you' in relation to these issues. and remember the PCE.

"
Can anyone help me with 1? I'm not confident that non-meditators will be able to accurately assess their own experience, and am *extremely* hesistant to talk about this condition outside of an internet forum (in person it would sound to many people like "my brain is f*cked up!'; people aren't always very understanding). I see few alternatives besides asking on this forum, because we talk about all kinds of weird experiences as it is, and we're all in this together."

This is actually kind of a simple problem to solve. So you've got a body sensation (looking at the fan blades: 1st foundation), the unpleasant reaction to it (2nd foundation) a mind state - frustration? - (3rd), and then the stories you are telling yourself about it (4th). It doesn't matter which sense door they are really coming in, it matters that you can note with accuracy the four foundations without spinning out in content and stories. If you are trying to understand your experience so that it can be different, that's just more aversion - but if you are trying to experience your experience directly and without demands, understanding will arise without effort. What does your story about synaesthesia feel like in your body?

Yes, what Owen said - just observe it, naively, with pure intent. it seems you want to 'figure it out' and believe you have to 'figure it out' to make progress towards AF.. but that is just papanca, mental proliferation, perpetuating ignorance which leads to suffering, etc. you want discernment, or insight, which you get by observing naively, asking haietmoba, etc. and owen makes a good point - understanding arises effortlessly; once the conditions are right it just happens of its own accord.

Beoman, thanks for testing the cases I talked about and letting me know about your experience.

Apart from that...Owen, beoman, I'm not sure either of you understand what my problem is. I'm super-clear on what's an affect (or 'being'). Affects are unmistakeable, whether "normal" or synaesthetic. It's just that I have no idea what object corresponds to some of the synaesthetic affects.

The *reason* I have no idea what actual object corresponds to the synaesthetic affects is not similar to the case when I have no idea what object corresponds to a "normal" affect. In the "normal" case, one just needs to look more clearly and dispassionately at the relevant sense door until it eventually becomes clear. In the synaesthetic case of e.g. vision, it's as if the actual object is in another sense door entirely (as if one had 7 senses, two of which are vision). In the case of the experiences I'm describing, there's a strong possibility that the reason I can't locate them is because they are synaesthetic and the actual object is as if experienced through a unique sense door (so the 6 regular ones, plus duplicates of vision, sound, and touch) which require some subtle way of aiming my attention towards.

How do you know that you have 6 senses instead of 9? "Where" would you look in order to check for extra ones? Perhaps that conveys the flavor of the situation.

Owen, I don't want "understanding". Stories are irrelevant. I want to see the actual objects underlying my affective experience. Comparing the actual object to the affect it generates is the most effective method I've found for undoing the process that generates affects. In my experience so far, not seeing the actual object, but noting the affect, is a piss-poor substitute. (cont)

(cont) If I can figure out whether these experiences are "normal" or synaesthetic, it will suggest "where" to look. I already figured this out for 2a and 2b, thanks in part to the link. The actual experience is aural but unlike any normal sound that I could hear with my ears.

So, Owen, what experience do you have when you look at a moving fan?

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not asking anyone for practice advice with respect to this issue. Perhaps the major thing that stands in the way of getting any good advice, which I didn't realize would be true until after reading Owen's response, is that this form of experience is hard to conceptualize for those who don't have it. (E.g. I don't appear to have a body sensation corresponding to fan blades in the normal sense of what "body sensation" means; I have an affective body sensation, but some actual experience that may or may not arrive through the "normal" tactile sense door). All I want, and all I need, is an indication of whether these experiences are typical, in order to direct my search more precisely. What so bad about giving me a straightforward answer about your own experience? Why the need to give me practice advice over an issue that probably never has and never could occur for you?

EDIT 2: My assumption at this point is that the experience of looking at spinning fan blades that I describe is not typical...but I'm deeply surprised and dismayed that only two people bothered to share their own experience of this in order to help me figure out something about my mind. Isn't the point of this forum for us to help each other?

Hi End,
My experience of looking at a moving fan blade elicits no synaesthetic effects. It's just the visual impression of moving fan blades (and then whatever chains of stuff emerges in response to that).

That said, I guess I have a reverse synaesthesia to yours in that I see abstract patterns (and to a lesser extent) colors for sounds. These patterns and colors are different from external visual percepts and also different from typical inner imaginations. I understand the experience of their being in a different "place", phenomenally. I believe the actual object of these sensations is a pattern-recognition neural circuit, i.e., the brain sensing itself recognize a pattern. I'm not sure they are abstract in the sense of derived or second order either, they present as "more actual" than imaginary representation, with a distinctly tactile quality. Oh, the same abstract-impressions occur in understanding mathematical concepts, I just realized. So, definitely different from imagination and visual perception, and completely unlike verbal thinking. It's a visual-tactile-pattern-perception.

Is this sharing at all helpful or interesting to you?
-Jake

P.S. We should be aware of the possibility that PCE and AF and actuality in general, including as it does the actual neuro-sensory material processes of individual bodyminds, may well present with unique and atypical phenomena in the case of neuro-atypical practitioners. So, you may well experience actual sensations that are unavailable to neurotypical practitioners. Just a thought.

ah thanks for the clarification post. i was unclear what the actual problem was, and it seemed to affect 'you', so i was suggesting to look at your relationship to the issue since that relationship might be causing you to not be happy or harmless... (and that might still be something to look at - and being dismayed at the response of some forum-goers indicates identity there, and i don't mean to nitpick or anything, just pointing things out =P)

but now i see (i guess i wasn't reading very thoroughly before) what your actual issue is: that you're not sure what the actual experience behind something synesthetic-affective is...

so, how do you tell for a regular experience? you notice some affect - what procedure do you use to see the non-affective behind it? i'll admit what i sometimes do - for example with tactile sensations - is go into a cool breeze and focus on those sensations, to get past the affective stuff on top, and that poses a problem for you if you're unsure how to active a particular synesthetic effect.... but maybe you have some other approaches that don't involve stimulating the senses?

can you describe how the synesthetic-affective stuff differs from the synesthetic-actual stuff a bit more? maybe can try to figure something out here...

about 2b, i will say that, when there is a constant noise in the background, and i turn my head, sound does change.. but that's just cause my ears are in a different place, i think (you can get this effect by cupping your ears from the back, palms facing front, or cupping your ears from the front, palms facing back - the contrast is remarkable when at a concert, for example). are you describing a different effect there?

"EDIT: To be clear, I'm not asking anyone for practice advice with respect to this issue. Perhaps the major thing that stands in the way of getting any good advice, which I didn't realize would be true until after reading Owen's response, is that this form of experience is hard to conceptualize for those who don't have it. (E.g. I don't appear to have a body sensation corresponding to fan blades in the normal sense of what "body sensation" means; I have an affective body sensation, but some actual experience that may or may not arrive through the "normal" tactile sense door). All I want, and all I need, is an indication of whether these experiences are typical, in order to direct my search more precisely. What so bad about giving me a straightforward answer about your own experience? Why the need to give me practice advice over an issue that probably never has and never could occur for you?

EDIT 2: My assumption at this point is that the experience of looking at spinning fan blades that I describe is not typical...but I'm deeply surprised and dismayed that only two people bothered to share their own experience of this in order to help me figure out something about my mind. Isn't the point of this forum for us to help each other?"

EndInSight, I spent the last few months working with a student who had the same issue. Trust me on this, I know what I'm talking about. Investigate the drama you are spinning in, the synaesthesia itself is irrelevant.

"Is this sharing at all helpful or interesting to you?"

Very much so. Thanks.

Also, what you're describing (sound --> vision) appears to be similar to what I'm describing, not the reverse. Not sure about what you mean regarding math; do you have an example of a concept or proof that elicits the actual "pattern recognition" experience you're talking about?

I agree that actual experiences will differ between people depending on the particular ways their mind is constructed. I'm trying to inventory my experience to see if I've missed anything atypical that could be actualized.

Out of curiosity, was your non-external non-imaginary visual experience more obscured by affect than your regular visual experience? If so, how did you approach that issue in your own practice?

"EndInSight, I spent the last few months working with a student who had the same issue. Trust me on this, I know what I'm talking about."

Owen, with all respect, the inference you describe in these two sentences is a grossly irresponsible one for you to allow to influence your behavior, and I have no idea how a rational person could come to think it was a valid one.

As for what you call "drama"...do you recall when we talked after Kenneth's class and you asked me about whether I loved myself (as opposed to regarding myself with dislike)? Do you recall the boggled look I must have given you when I told you that the concept was alien to me and not a mode of thinking that made any sense to me? Doesn't that suggest to you, at least upon reflection, that perhaps my mind is constructed differently than yours (or most people's) in more ways than you might have thought?

All I see in my posting on this thread is a self-report and request for information. Whatever drama you see is probably based on an inference that depends on a false assumption about the workings of my mind and psychology. Trust me on this, I know what I'm talking about...it's my mind.

If you're not going to describe your own experience, I will ask you not to post in this thread.