Coming out to friends and family

How open are you with friends and family about your practice and about enlightenment? When they ask you what you're doing for two weeks on retreat, do you give them the whole story, or do you just let them believe you're working on being relaxed?

I recall Kenneth writing something nice about this, something along the lines of:
People who ask you how was your retreat are not looking for a deep explanation about how you went through the nyanas or something, and that over time he learned to tell them about the lovely view outside at the retreat centre or something.

Personally I found that being too specific with the experiences can confuse people at best, but usually depending upon who you speak to.

I have not talked to anyone in my family about this other than my wife (obviously) and a couple friends who practice. I also have not done any retreats though so it's not like I disappear for long periods of time. I think when the time is right I will tell them, but in a way that won't scare them off I have, however, worn a Buddhist Geeks shirt around them. They didn't even ask.

Usually I just go along when people say something like "what a nice chance to kick back and relax". I have to admit that with friends and family I've sometimes tried to throw in a little bit of a cryptic hook and then act casual and move-right-along. So far no nibbles.

I generally keep it pretty minimalist/general and let the other person lead. It's not, in some ways, that different than someone gushing about their church life or other religious subjects - if it's outside the realm of experience of the other person, it's just going to make them weird out. If it turns out the other person has an interest in meditation or has meditated, that can allow the conversation to go on a bit further. But a detailed account of my inner experience is probably nothing but bizarre and/or irrelevant to anyone who doesn't have a strong, regular meditation practice with an aim to awakening.

I also try to keep in mind what (unskillful) motive I might have for wanting to say more (ie being aware if there's a motive to get attention, get praise, shock the person, feel special etc.) as those are always good things to keep an eye on in every day behavior.

People in my life - family, work, etc. - know about my practice. Some more than others, of course, but I have decided to be open and honest about this thing I do, and I have discovered that most people are genuinely curious and interested in meditation. I've run into other serious meditators by being open about my practice. I have never been embarrassed or made fun of in a way that made me feel silly or stupid.

When I talk about this stuff I keep it simple. 'I meditate everyday and go on week long retreats to develop understanding about myself and the world,' is what I usually say. But I'm never shy to admit that I'm a student of the Buddhadharma which I then go on to explain is nothing more than doing good, refraining from evil and training the mind. If I have an interested audience then I dive right into an extemporaneous lesson on the three trainings and how they directly connect with the three characteristics. After about 10 or 15 minutes folks start to look at their watches, get shifty and try and change the subject or look for an exit.

I actually came out of the closet with a public letter to friends and family on facebook. How geeky is that?:

www.facebook.com/notes/ronald-crouch/com...oset/113249798724930

What was good about this is that those family and friends that thought it was really interesting contacted me directly and those who thought I was crazy took a step back and waited to see what would happen. Two years on, I haven't shaved my head and started talking in tounges, so they are pretty sure I'm OK and that maybe this wasn't a leap off of a mental cliff...

I've been talking about everything to just about everyone who would listen right from the start. It's my nature, i suppose. I have gotten generally positive responses, even about the awakening stuff.

"I actually came out of the closet with a public letter to friends and family on facebook. How geeky is that?.....Two years on, I haven't shaved my head and started talking in tounges, so they are pretty sure I'm OK and that maybe this wasn't a leap off of a mental cliff..."

Ron, since you are a psychologist they probably figured you were already a lost soul

"Ron, since you are a psychologist they probably figured you were already a lost soul

"

Ha!

"... After about 10 or 15 minutes folks start to look at their watches, get shifty and try and change the subject or look for an exit.

"

the same would probably happen if you went on and on about your model airplane collection or how ice cream is made...

I've had people approach me after they've heard I'm a meditator/teacher - people I know and people who know people I know, friends of my wife, friends of my kids, people at the office and their friends. It's an interesting phenomenon because there appears to be a level of curiosity amongst the general population that manifests as a positive kind of curiosity, not a negative kind. Often folks will say, "I always wanted to learn to meditate," or something similar. I've run into some very serious mediators in very unexpected places, like when I attended Singularity University last April on the NASA Ames campus in Mountain View, CA. The class I was in was full of really hard core science, engineering and software types and yet a good 25% or so were practicing in some contemplative tradition, and pretty openly.

What I was taking from the initial question was not about admitting that you meditate, but going into great detail on ones inner experience. It's one thing to say "yeah, I was on retreat, it did me good, it helps me have some time to really figure out stuff about myself and reality" vs "on day three there was this weird vibration and I kept having flashing lights and my arms were twitching" - the latter is probably TMI for most friends and family who as "so what's a retreat like or why did you go?"

Ona, yes, I would never share that kind of detail with friends and family unless they were exceedingly curious about it. Sharing that stuff with others would indeed be weird.

I agree. I actually made the mistake of trying to do some of that last year and the person involved was good-natured about it, but he hasn't exactly been bursting with questions about my latest experiences on the cushion. I shared the fact that I'd gone on retreat with my department yesterday; they asked about having to be silent, and I mentioned that yes, I was silent, plus meditated for 5+ hours a day. Even that was a bit too much for some of them to absorb; I mean, what on earth could I be *doing* during all those hours, for heaven's sake?!

"I mean, what on earth could I be *doing* during all those hours, for heaven's sake?!"

Most folks in the U.S. would think doing this kind of "nothing" is almost criminal.

I see a lot of variations here on my own experiences. My closest friends know I meditate and that I've got a few of these things called "paths" under my belt. I've turned a few of them on to light meditation. I taught one friend Mahamudra noting, and I showed choiceless noting to another, but it's not like any of them have gotten gung-ho about it. I don't mention anything about it to my coworkers, though, and people on Facebook who thought they were interested in what I was doing suddenly became very quiet once I went into details about my practice.

What really made me think about this was watching this talk by Sam Harris:



Particularly the part where he gets a roomful of 4,000 atheists to perform mindfulness meditation to make his broader philosophical point. I often openly express my views on things like science, politics, and culture - so why not spirituality? I usually feel more reticent to express my views on this, even though there's substantial scientific and phenomenological knowledge of these things at this point.

I used to talk about it more, but I stopped because of concern that I was acting from unskillful motives, as giragirasol mentioned.

I understand what unskillful motives are but can you guys tell me why that would stop you from admitting to being a meditator or talking about meditation if you are asked about it? I've never foisted my practice on anyone and only get into specifics if asked, but I admit to having a practice openly. Am I at risk of running afoul of some unskilled motivation that I am unaware of?

What I meant specifically was going into a lot of detail about my practice with people who aren't practicing themselves. I did this a little while but then realized that part of the reason I was doing this was to show how special I was for being able to access all this spiritual territory and for having achieved these attainments. There were other motives, too, like just being excited about what I was doing and wanting to share and wanting to whet others' interests. But the realization that I was trying to seem special made me dial that back a bit and only talk with that kind of detail and enthusiasm with other practitioners or people who specifically asked about it.

Under most circumstances, I'm comfortable admitting I'm a meditator when asked about it. I don't think there's any danger in that. If there is, I haven't experienced it.

What about when you (all) talk to other meditators who are not part of our tradition? Some folks don't recognize our stages of enlightenment, and many aren't aware of stages at all. As we know, people have radically different conceptions of what enlightenment is, things based on popular notions of saints, or things from their own religious backgrounds.

What happens when you're in a group session on a retreat and it's your turn to talk about what's going on? For some reason, this causes me a lot of anxiety. I try to stick to a pure phenomenological report, but I'm still never sure how honest to be.

I fairly often talk to teachers in traditions not my own to get their perspectives on questions I have. I don't think I've ever started the conversation by telling them "where I am" - I just explain what I'm struggling with (experientially, emotionally, etc.) in non-technical language and ask what their view is. It's often quite interesting to hear and there is useful info there, even if they use a different vocabulary. I think most experienced teachers can tell what you need to hear (and where you are, in their own understanding of the path) based on the question. An advanced meditator doesn't ask about what words to use when noting. A beginner doesn't ask about a sense of confusion when they try to locate who is looking at phenomena.
eta, have you run into people completely not getting your questions at retreats, etc.?

I'm also someone who has specifically not talked about practice for the most part. I have to admit, it was for one of the reasons that apperception mentioned -- I could see how my own ego/identity was wrapped up in it. On any given day, I would flip flop between feeling like I was better than everyone because I practiced and I was worse than everyone because I needed to practice. So talking about it wouldn't help anyone, it would just be me airing out my dirty laundry, my own conflicted mind.

I also knew that I wasn't ready to answer the big question -- why are you doing it? For years, I practiced for enlightenment... but these days I practice for awakening. It's the same destination I think, but a big difference practically and interpersonally. Everyone is at least a little awake, everyone goes in and out of being awake, everyone would benefit being a little more awake. It's just unappreciated how much work is needed to let go of the things that keep us locked in thought. One's identity needs to fall apart a little or a lot.

I've been mentioning practice a bit more these days. Actually, I'm just not lying anymore when someone says "what did you do on your time off?" or "how did you spend your time at the hotel last night?" (while on a business trip).

I don't think I'll mention "my own" paths or nanas or jhanas, except with others with a serious practice who would actually benefit from hearing it. For one, they are unclear to me as a member of the no big wow club. But also, I've been thinking that it is more practical to see them as artifacts of practice. In fact, I've gone almost 180 degrees and I see them, jhanas especially, as how the mind stays un-awake in very subtle ways, as almost a protective mechanism. So nanas and jhanas and even paths seem milestones at best, like golden chains most of the time, but less like accomplishments.

"I've been mentioning practice a bit more these days. Actually, I'm just not lying anymore when someone says "what did you do on your time off?" or "how did you spend your time at the hotel last night?" (while on a business trip). "

"You mean you weren't really banging hookers and doing blow all those years?"

"have you run into people completely not getting your questions at retreats, etc.?"

No, I'm usually able to figure out my own problems on retreat. The issue is more what to say during sharing periods at the end of group sessions or in group meetings on retreat. I could say something insipid or complain about back ache to fit in, or I could decline to say anything. Or (as I did at IMS) I can give a detailed account of the phenomena and get weird looks and a reply from the teacher like "That sounds like great practice!"