Fruitions

Alright, I'm going to ask something I've been wondering about for a long time, but is probably controversial, who knows.

Fruitions - what the heck are they?

I've read Mahasi Sayadaw, and understand he refers to fruitions as a specific sort of state or mental occurence that in some contexts marks a "path" and in other contexts is a repeat experience during meditation. I understand that it is a "blip in consciousness" and that in some forms of practice (hardcore dharma circles maybe?) it is aimed at as a state to deliberately aim for and repeat, in the same way one might do other exercises during meditation (jhanas, metta visualizations, etc.). This "blip in consciousness" seems to be sometimes described as not-experienced except that one feels the after effects (such as bliss), and in other cases seems to be described as a state one maintains for periods of time, in which case it would be experienced, no?

My question is, do I understand the concept more or less? am I utterly confused? It's quite possible!

My other question is (and this perhaps is of interest to Jackson in particular) if you are not practicing a method where fruitions are a focus, do you have them? I can think of a few instances where I had experiences that might fall into that category, if I understand it correctly, but it was never much of a focus in my meditation practice, and if I had them regularly I never paid any particular attention to it.

Thoughts?

I think the word "fruition" can have many meanings in and out of dharma/meditation practice.

When I use the word I am referring to what happens when:

-one has gotten the ability to stay in a kind of bare, disembedded attention with just the right amount of momentum and continuity to create an experience of release followed by either a good or blissful feeling or some kind of freeing insight or a combination of the two.



For me, back in the 1980s and more recently, there hasn't been much bliss, really, I get more of just the release and a perspective that can create a moment of peace and clarity that just seems to freshen up my life (this can be brief, or last in one form or another for days or longer).

One thing I can say is that for me at least fruitions do not create some kind of lasting transformation in and off themselves. Maybe they can spark such a thing, but I think if a lasting transformation does come it is the result of a more formal integration process that in a way is more about right behavior than about the fruition itself.

If, as some claim or expect, the first fruition(s) are a sign of "path" or stream entry and are thus some kind of magical thing that brings revolutionary and lasting benefits to a person -- this is not my experience. Though -- I do think that my first fruition(s) were accompanied by insights into the three characteristics as taught in the basic "Progress of Insight" vipassana maps. However, I am still very much me me me, you know? Which of course, is fine. What else could it be?

And, this is something maybe from my own psychology as a compulsive alcoholic/drug/food addict but I can sit down to meditate and feel like a piece of crap, get very aware with continuity and momentum, get into equanimity, have a series of fruitions, and then get up still feeling like a piece of crap. Yes, it's true.

Now, this doesn't seem right, does it?

This isn't always the experience, but often it is. Sometimes after the frutions I wind up feeling not crap-like. But, the empirical evidence from just my own experience shows that the only reliable way for me to feel good about myself (even in the face of clear recognition of anatta) is to change my behavior in the world in significant ways.

(please note that this is not a complaint or a cry for help just reportage from an actually really happy person right now)

I could say more about how this kind of fruition can or will happen in or out of regular practices but I'll save it for later.

That's interesting. I have had what I tend to think of as energetic releases (not to be crude but sort of like an orgasm without the erotic component - a buildup of energy, a sudden spasm, and release), which can take place in various chakras (in the head in general, the forehead, the chest, or in the entire body). I don't think that's what you are talking about necessarily, though I wonder if it might be similar. Those I can "make happen" to some extent by focusing on a buildup of ecstatic energy and at various times in my practice they have happened spontaneously just while walking around or doing whatever, not while meditating. It's not necessarily blissful, though it can be. Can be just neutral, or even unpleasant.

I've had incidents where there was a sort of "snap" in the world and suddenly everything was completely bizarre for a moment, in a way I couldn't describe but left me terrified for an instant. The "snap" was not noticeable except that before it I was sitting there looking at the wall and meditating, and after it I was sitting there looking at the wall and panicking. That hasn't happened in a while and wasn't very common then.

I've had similar sort of snaps where I then had the really strong energy releases like I described above, often tied to mystical experiences. That is, I was sitting there meditating and then all of a sudden it was as if something changed suddenly, and that was accompanied by a sort of intense energy release, bliss, visions, expansiveness, divine presence, feeling like I understood something new, etc. That's not been super common, but memorable when it happens.

Do any of those parallel what you experience?

I'm kind of intrigued by how different each persons meditation can be.

(eta: posted while you were posting, so edited to address that)

What hasn't been clear is whether or not the "loss of consciousness" part was something that lasted long enough to be noticed, or whether it was the "aftermath" that was noticed and the blackness part was implied. If you notice it, awareness continues then? Or not? Like fainting, where you are aware of the world fading out, but then next thing you know you are lying on the floor and don't remember what happened in between?

And is it then the case that you can deliberately produce any of these experiences? Or that it tends to occur spontaneously for its own reasons?

For example I can do the energy burst thing just sitting here (and the way you describe the crescendo of attention to the breath and that energy buildup reminds me of what I feel when I do that, Chris), but it is not accompanied by any mental blanking out or blackness or anything.

With the exception of one time, most times I had big change in perception/understanding of things there was no specific "blacking out" that I recall, though perhaps it was so instantaneous I didn't notice it. What I tended to notice was suddenly seeing everything in a new way and saying "nothing will ever be the same again," accompanied by awe, wonder, etc.

I suppose it doesn't matter, really. I just am quite curious.

I am quite familiar with the whole "fruitions" thing, since my serious practice started out very much based on Mahasi Sayadaw style vipassana.

Fruitions definitely have different "flavors", and the types one experiences depends on what kind of practice their doing. For me, the flavor that returns the most often for me can be described as a type of mind-blink. I say "blink" because it happens about as quickly as a blink of the eye. But, instead of just the eye winking, all six senses (yes, six - "mind" is included) blink. I guess you could say consciousness itself blinks; or rather, "consciousness-of" blinks.

There is a lot of contention around whether or not awareness is present during fruition. I suspect that there is. But, since the time-space continuum seems to wink-out during fruition, there's no sense of time, or space, or anything else. It would appear that memory doesn't function without perception.

I think the common denominator of any "fruition" experience, regardless of whether it comes out of Chinese Zen or Tibetan Vajrayana or Burmese Theravada, is that it's a step beyond identification in a very thorough way. It's a straight-shot cut through duality. I think that a sense of continuity may be more likely if one is dwelling as primordial awareness, rather than taking consciousness or phenomenal appearances as object.

I'm open to any questions or comments on this. It can all be very funny to flesh out.

I have no freaking idea what they "really are," either, or what brain mechanisms might be involved to cause such things. The one thing aI do now is that they are very real.

-cmarti

As far as mechanisms go, it would seem that the primary mechanism(s) involved would have to do with identification. Identification really does seem to arise out of confusion, illusion, delusion, or what have you. When it is clearly seen that identifying with either consciousness or its objects (or both) is based on untruths, my guess would be that the identification mechanism runs out of things to grab on to or push away - basically, it can no longer sustain itself by way of reference.

And so, it lets go. Due to force of karmic habit, it returns, and the dance between samsara and nirvana continues. But I digress...

As far as mechanisms go, it would seem that the primary mechanism(s) involved would have to do with identification. Identification really does seem to arise out of confusion, illusion, delusion, or what have you. When it is clearly seen that identifying with either consciousness or its objects (or both) is based on untruths, my guess would be that the identification mechanism runs out of things to grab on to or push away - basically, it can no longer sustain itself by way of reference.
And so, it lets go. Due to force of karmic habit, it returns, and the dance between samsara and nirvana continues. But I digress...


-awouldbehipster

If that's the case they would stop at some point? (or become a constant condition, thus not occurring?)

Nirodha Samapatti:

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-cmarti

That sounds like a coma! LOL

What I suspect happens in many traditions is something like this:

Guy is meditating
Some weird shit happens spontaneously
Guy tells his buddies
They all spend some time trying to do the same thing, figure out how it works, and write down exercises to make it happen
It becomes a standard practice or exercise in a tradition

That doesn't necessarily make the practice useless or anything like that! I'm just saying, I suspect that's the origin of many of these mental, perceptual and physical exercises.

This idea came to me because on more than one occasion I've had spontaneous yoga postures or breathing patterns happen, even though I rarely have done yoga, and even if I try to do yoga I can't do the postures or breathing like that at all.

Same kind of thing happens in Magick - some guy does some practice, has a wacky vision, sees God, and writes down what he did. Generations of people after repeat the process over and over, hoping to have the same vision or experience. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Sometimes that guy had that vision because of who he was as an individual and his particular stage of development, not because he put on a certain color robe, sang a certain song, and stood on his head under a full moon.

Thoughts?

I think Ona has had frutions. Her description that ends in bliss, release, feeling of something new happening/being learned sounds like it to me. The description of something that ends end terror or fear sounds less so, but could still be it, I think.



I think fruitions are going to happen to anyone who is paying attention in just the right way whether they know it or not or whether they are even doing some kind of "spiritual" practice or not. The only important thing is the quality of the attention.

I'm really enjoying this discussion, everyone.

There's a short recording at Buddhist Geeks where Hokai talks about the difference between traditional and post-traditional dharma. You can listen to it, or read the transcript, here (if you haven't already) --> http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2011/05/upgrading-to-a-post-traditional-buddhism/

Here is an excerpt that I think ties together some of what we're talking about:

"The third shift that makes the practice post-traditional is a shift which makes it clear that the meditation experience, even meditative realization, in itself, means nothing. Every experience and every realization, even very high realization, very advanced realization needs to be fully interpreted and fully acknowledged and fully integrated into life experience. This basically means that there has to be a high degree of integrity between our spiritual lives and mundane lives. The basic degree of spiritual development would be a decreasing gap between what we see as spiritual and what we see as unspiritual or ordinary." [Emphasis mine.]

So, what are these mind-blink style fruitions? What do they mean? How are they useful/helpful? Why does developing the capacity for their occurrence correspond with some level of awakening or spiritual realization? From a post-traditional point of view (which I think that most, if not all, of us are coming from in this forum), I think the answers are informed, but not defined, by the established traditions in which they are emphasized.

The meaning of any fruition (which is just a fancy way of saying "result") is context dependent, and contexts are boundless. In other words, "it's turtles all the way down" (for those of you who get the reference). And since each and every individual can be reliably described in one sense as an ever evolving context, there is a responsibility placed on every spiritual practitioner to explore what any meditative experience means for them personally. Again, I think it's important to be informed by tradition, so we're not all just flying by the seat of our pants. And tradition is a sort of collective context, which cannot really be separated from individuals as contexts.

In short, how we choose to actualize the fruition of our practice discloses the meaning we assign to it.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Although I think that it's important to deeply consider what it means for others, ultimately we each decide what it means for us - and we're each responsible for the ways this meaning shapes our decisions about how we are with others. It's all woven together, which is pretty cool when you think about it.

The fruit of my labor

Is not the end of my endeavor -

Just the start

Of the actual part

When the road

Meets my tire.

The basic degree of spiritual development would be a decreasing gap between what we see as spiritual and what we see as unspiritual or ordinary."

-awouldbehipster

Though I find his overall thesis a bit academic (I read all the back and forth in the comments, too, and I think I get the general idea and agree with it), this particular line seems not only necessary but, well... the whole point.

So, what are these mind-blink style fruitions? What do they mean? How are they useful/helpful? Why does developing the capacity for their occurrence correspond with some level of awakening or spiritual realization? From a post-traditional point of view (which I think that most, if not all, of us are coming from in this forum), I think the answers are informed, but not defined, by the established traditions in which they are emphasized.

-awouldbehipster

Yes, I'd agree, I find them not particularly relevant as such, though looking back at specific instances where they appear to have occurred, they do appear to have some link to insights and such sometimes. And they are clearly very relevant if they are a marker in the form of practice you are focusing on, and that's fine.

The meaning of any fruition (which is just a fancy way of saying "result") ...


-awouldbehipster

The generic use of the word to mean "result" is very different, to my mind, from this other usage I brought up at the beginning of this thread, which is to describe a specific mind-state or experience of cessation of consciousness that in some practices is deliberately practiced as an exercise. That's not the same thing, imo. That is, the mind-state/experience might be the same, but the meaning of the word is much more specific in that context.

I do agree this is absolutely fascinating discussion. We are probably re-discussing things people have discussed a thousand times, but I didn't get to take part all those other times, so I'm enjoying the exploration.