Awakening is no big deal?

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10 years 1 month ago #18573 by Justin
The more I read about awakening, the more I keep running into phrases describing it as “no big deal”, “ordinary”, “nothing special”, etc.

I do understand that there’s a lot of hype around enlightenment, and that awakening doesn’t mean you’ll be endlessly blissful. But what I don’t understand is how it can be no big deal when there is supposedly a fundamental reduction in attachment and aversion, which I assume would lead to a reduction in suffering as well. Isn’t that a big deal in and of itself? And isn’t that part of the reason why we practice?

To me, it seems as if the “no big deal” attitude is an attempt to offer some balance to the outrageous claims about enlightenment. But it can also be discouraging to those of us who haven’t yet experienced awakening. I recently read this in Dan’s journal:

“I feel so confused. On one hand hearing about peace and reduction and suffering, and on the other, the ‘nothing is different’ and ‘no big deal’ result.”

I’ve seen this type of reaction before, and it’s a sentiment I can definitely relate to. If everything really is exactly the same as before, then why practice at all?

Many accounts of awakening describe the paradox of realizing that you were searching for what was never lost in the first place. But to me, even this realization would be a significant change, and again, a big deal!

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10 years 1 month ago #18574 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Awakening is no big deal?
The paradox is that it's a big deal when it is contrasted with something else. But if the process of mental activity that constantly compares things (What if things were different now?), which is part of what makes people miserable, goes away, then what remains seems to be a great deal of this sense of ordinariness.

So it's different, in a sense, but part of the difference is that the pattern of constantly noticing that this or that is different than it could be or was or should be goes away, so it's not different. From what is it different? From being constantly caught up in comparing and fantasizing and wishing and desiring and not liking and so forth.... But it is that game itself that creates the sense of comparison, the contrasting of one experience to another.

So when that game isn't being played anymore, when it falls apart, then it no longer operates and becomes moot.

It wouldn't make any sense for me to say "Right now is so kick-ass better than... " Than what? An imaginary version of the present moment in which something else is happening? Some moment six years ago when I was happy or unhappy? Neither of those has any relevance to the present moment. They would just be random thoughts. They don't have any applicability.

So it's sort of a paradoxical thing.

Not sure that helps at all, but others may have more useful words. I'm still not sure I can articulate it in any sort of sensible way.

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10 years 1 month ago #18575 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Awakening is no big deal?
Just to add another layer: most people come in to spiritual seeking with a problem to solve. Yet the problem (at least the deeper level of the problem, which eventually gets uncovered more clearly), is that they think there's a problem to solve. So it's a sort of self-sustaining loop.

The fact is, for many if not most people, some kind of practice helps in the process of untangling this idea that there's a problem to solve, since it is deeply entangled with our sense of who we are and so on. So practices are usually a very useful aid in "making progress", if only by gradually eliminating all the layers of lesser "problems" that are entangled with the root "problem." This is not a problem - it helps.

However, particularly at later stages, it is often very useful to focus on the underlying root misconception, that is, to undermine the whole chasing after problem solving, since it is the chasing after it that reinforces its existence, like a moebius strip that goes on and on. Which is why sometimes people even get told to stop practicing altogether for a time, or given koans or parables - an attempt to break the obsessive seeking, which is just sustaining the illusion that there's something one has to find.

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10 years 1 month ago #18577 by Justin
Replied by Justin on topic Awakening is no big deal?
Thanks a lot for the clarification, Ona. It's very helpful! From my perspective, if "the process of mental activity that constantly compares things ... goes away", I imagine that would be quite liberating. So much suffering is the "second arrow" type of suffering that comes from refusing to accept what's actually happening and wishing for something better. If awakening helps someone to fully accept each moment as it is, both positive and negative, then that would be an entire layer of suffering that disappears.

While it might not make sense for you to say that "right now is so kick-ass better than... [some imaginary better present moment]", would it make sense to say that your reaction to any moment that arises is one of acceptance, and therefore if the moment was a painful one, it would be less painful than if there was a degree of resistance to it?

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10 years 1 month ago #18580 by Kate Gowen
I may be simply re-stating what Ona said, in my own words, but I'd say that "Big Deal Awakening" presents two problems. The first is that pretty much all our expectations are what keep us from just getting the pointing-out instruction and seeing immediately: "Oh, that!"

The second is that, after the event, there is no surer detour from the further path of integration and living the awakening, than making a big deal out of having finally "got it." A person could keep that pesky ego fat, happy, and in charge, for the rest of this life ( and whatever further ones may come ) by making a grand narrative for oneself and others about the Really Big Realization one had and how one is now totally transformed.

So, yeah-- it can be a big change; it can be transformative. But the one who wants/needs/expects it to be a big deal… won't be around to sound the trumpets.

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10 years 1 month ago #18581 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Awakening is no big deal?

Justin Fauci wrote: While it might not make sense for you to say that "right now is so kick-ass better than... [some imaginary better present moment]", would it make sense to say that your reaction to any moment that arises is one of acceptance, and therefore if the moment was a painful one, it would be less painful than if there was a degree of resistance to it?


What do you think? :)

I remember when I was a kid, I was phobic about shots. So going to get a shot (which hurts for about 2 seconds) involved 2 seconds of actual pain sandwiched between at least an hour of total freakout.

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10 years 1 month ago #18582 by Kate Gowen
I think it might help if I expand on my first point a bit: the idea that awakening involves some big, obvious experience or insight actively prevents the real process from happening; it leads to people rejecting the small experiences and insights that are part of the process, waiting for the Big One. A lot of the work teachers do with folks is to redirect them, to help them take another look at all the stuff that they think is insignificant or off-track, to stop being so quick to dismiss the real stuff of their lives and practice as unworthy or "too… (whatever: ordinary, dumb, silly, obvious, weird, unspiritual)" to count.

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10 years 1 month ago #18583 by Justin
Replied by Justin on topic Awakening is no big deal?

Ona Kiser wrote: What do you think? :)


LOL. I was just trying to get you to say, point-blank, that after awakening, there is less suffering. :P

And Kate, thanks for your input as well. That makes a lot of sense, and if / when I do wake up, I will definitely try to avoid becoming Full-of-Himself Enlightenment Guy haha.

My reason for bringing this up in the first place was because I've seen many people - including myself at times - discouraged with practice because of others using phrases like "not a big deal" that seemed to undermine the transformation that takes places with and after awakening. But I can see how it's just a matter of perspective, and perhaps one I'll understand more when I see for myself :)

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10 years 1 month ago #18587 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Awakening is no big deal?
It's funny, I don't really identify with the "less suffering" thing. And I hear my dad's voice in this, when I used to say "Daaaad, I'm staaaarving! When's dinner?" And he'd give me a hard, hard look and say "Were you in Stalingrad? You don't know what starving is."

I started to meditate because I was afraid to die, and afraid to die in an ugly way, like my dad who died ungracefully of cancer, or my friend who got run over by his mower in front of his kids. That was the motivation. "Suffering" never entered into it. Is it sad when we lose friends or family? Sure. Last week or so, talking to my parish priest, I had this odd moment where for an instant he looked exactly like my dad. It was almost a supernatural sort of thing. I felt a wave of nostalgia, thought how neat it would be to show my dad around Brazil. A tear sprang to my eye. He was a quirky guy, and tough on us when I was young, but we got along quite well when I was older and had great conversations about obscure subjects.

Am I afraid to die now? Not in the abstract, but we'll deal with that when the moment arrives. ;)

The other thing is that initial awakening provides a level of clarity and purity of experience that allows one to feel and see things in a deeper more intense way than before. We often aren't really experiencing the fullness of feelings, reactions, aversions, etc before that, because they are still quite masked by evasions or surface stuff. So there is a long period in which emotions, reactions etc are felt with even more intensity than before awakening. This can be a surprise to people who think that awakening will suddenly erase all the things they don't like about themselves or other people, for instance. Without this clarity of experience, however, that stuff can't work itself out. The "peeling the onion" metaphor seems quite apt (as does the "purification" metaphor), in that one can only "be with things" that are available. But as each layer peels away, there's more/new stuff to be with. The time it takes for that reactivity to untangle depends on unknown factors, though it seems to include how much unseen/unsorted baggage one has, ones personality and life experience, and how well one applies the "just be with it" sort of practices rather than trying to stifle or run away from what comes up.

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10 years 1 month ago #18588 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Awakening is no big deal?

Kate Gowen wrote: I think it might help if I expand on my first point a bit: the idea that awakening involves some big, obvious experience or insight actively prevents the real process from happening; it leads to people rejecting the small experiences and insights that are part of the process, waiting for the Big One. A lot of the work teachers do with folks is to redirect them, to help them take another look at all the stuff that they think is insignificant or off-track, to stop being so quick to dismiss the real stuff of their lives and practice as unworthy or "too… (whatever: ordinary, dumb, silly, obvious, weird, unspiritual)" to count.


Really, really useful tip!!

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10 years 1 month ago #18590 by nadav
Replied by nadav on topic Awakening is no big deal?
When I was heavy into practice, it was because of a compulsion (“insight disease”) that waxed and waned in a gradually declining slope until it resolved itself through the event that I would call awakening. The event—which really occured over several days following a moment of realization—completely changed my relationship to practice and life, since practice had been the most important thing in it. In that sense, it was a very big deal indeed.

Fantasizing about enlightenment, people imagine firework: bliss, ecstatic states, the elimination of things that drive us nuts like thoughts or anxiety or depression, a palpable change in presence that will make passersby kneel and swoon. I had these expectations and others even more outlandish, I'm sure. Thing is, there really are fireworks along the path but they have very little to do with awakening itself. This is partially where the "no big deal" thing comes in, I think. The final part of the path before awakening was about facing these expectations about enlightenment, coming to grips with the fact that the elevated states that I had mastered were ultimately as unsatisfactory as everything else, and recognizing that there was nothing else to do but live my life. Awakening was simpler than the territory that preceded it. The drive, the identity as a Spiritual Guy On An Important Path, the fascination with altered states... none of the things that were so important before had the same power. In that sense, compared to what I imagined it to be and what it had been at times on the way, it wasn't a very big deal at all.

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10 years 1 month ago #18591 by nadav
Replied by nadav on topic Awakening is no big deal?

Ona Kiser wrote:

Kate Gowen wrote: I think it might help if I expand on my first point a bit: the idea that awakening involves some big, obvious experience or insight actively prevents the real process from happening; it leads to people rejecting the small experiences and insights that are part of the process, waiting for the Big One. A lot of the work teachers do with folks is to redirect them, to help them take another look at all the stuff that they think is insignificant or off-track, to stop being so quick to dismiss the real stuff of their lives and practice as unworthy or "too… (whatever: ordinary, dumb, silly, obvious, weird, unspiritual)" to count.


Really, really useful tip!!


Yes, I love this.

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10 years 1 month ago - 10 years 1 month ago #18597 by Sadalsuud
Replied by Sadalsuud on topic Awakening is no big deal?
I think Kate has nailed it on this thread.

I would like to add though also that if you think awakening is big deal, you will think it's very far away, and you will believe you must go through stage X to stage Z, for 5 years, 20 years, before you can get there. If this is what you believe, then this how long it will take you!
You can't get awakened, unless you really believe that you can get awakened. (it does happen but this is the rarity, not the norm!).

Alan Watts has a very beautiful succinct talk on it which I'm sure many of you have heard.
link to alan watts youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO_txM4i-X8

Daniel ingram mentioned it somewhere, about attaining SE... something about he can see from the faith and motivation in people when they come to do a retreat (with the intent of doing SE) whether they will nail it or not. So I think it's best to believe that awakening is not really that big a deal. It just happens by accident to some people, some people just see it the first time they hear a buddhist sutta, some do a 3 days enlightenment intensive, or some others take years. Whatever you decide is how long it will take! Choose your belief!

2. Saying awakening is a big deal is a bad idea because awakened people can get really proud of their achievement, which I'm sure you'll all agree is an utterly horrible sight for everyone. I have experienced it from both sides :)
I am trying my hardest to drop all my emotional attachment to awakening.

nadav wrote:

Ona Kiser wrote:

Kate Gowen wrote: I think it might help if I expand on my first point a bit: the idea that awakening involves some big, obvious experience or insight actively prevents the real process from happening; it leads to people rejecting the small experiences and insights that are part of the process, waiting for the Big One. A lot of the work teachers do with folks is to redirect them, to help them take another look at all the stuff that they think is insignificant or off-track, to stop being so quick to dismiss the real stuff of their lives and practice as unworthy or "too… (whatever: ordinary, dumb, silly, obvious, weird, unspiritual)" to count.


Really, really useful tip!!


Yes, I love this.

Last edit: 10 years 1 month ago by Sadalsuud.

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10 years 1 month ago #18600 by Eric
Replied by Eric on topic Awakening is no big deal?
To me there is a kind of an S shaped curve to developmental progress. (Geeking out in the spirit of DI).

At first, nothing much for a long time, then a period of rapid progress, where it seems like a very big deal, and then a "final" plateau. It seems like a very big deal during the rapid progress phase, so much change, but then it levels out and that becomes your new normal, you get used to it and so it's no big deal again.

For me, the tranquility increase is significant because I used to suffer from mild depression and anxiety. Wiping those out, as if they had never existed, is a big deal, but in a way only based on my memories of anxiety problems. That particular axis (tranquility) is not necessarily classic enlightenment, although I think it correlates well.

For me it was something I was always curious about, and it's kind of cool to live half a life one way and live the rest with a slightly different perspective. Freer, more relaxed, less suffering in a way, but way more impersonal.

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10 years 1 month ago #18604 by Justin
Replied by Justin on topic Awakening is no big deal?

nadav wrote: Fantasizing about enlightenment, people imagine firework: bliss, ecstatic states, the elimination of things that drive us nuts like thoughts or anxiety or depression, a palpable change in presence that will make passersby kneel and swoon. I had these expectations and others even more outlandish, I'm sure. Thing is, there really are fireworks along the path but they have very little to do with awakening itself.
...
In that sense, compared to what I imagined it to be and what it had been at times on the way, it wasn't a very big deal at all.


It seems like a person's response to awakening depends to a large degree on the expectations he or she had prior to awakening. That makes sense to me because it helps to explain the vast differences in how people explain their experiences of awakening. I've seen descriptions of awakening that noted clarity of mind, realization of the true nature of self, realization of the true nature of everything, a more frictionless experience with less attachment to emotions, the end of depression (Kenneth Folk), the end of fear (Adyashanti), greater compassion, etc.

There's also the Jeffrey Martin study , linked to previously on this forum, that talks about how the enlightened person's experience of emotions becomes increasingly positive, and how there is an increased sense of well-being the further along you are.

Meanwhile, on the other end of the spectrum, I've heard awakening described as disappointing, anti-climactic, and nothing special.

For me, at the moment, I'm honestly more interested in this from an intellectual standpoint, wondering why the accounts of awakening are so varied and seemingly contradictory. In terms of practice, my seeker is still here, so I will continue on for as long as I have this "insight disease", and so I can draw my own conclusions.

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10 years 1 month ago #18607 by Russell
Replied by Russell on topic Awakening is no big deal?

Justin wrote: It seems like a person's response to awakening depends to a large degree on the expectations he or she had prior to awakening.


Bingo! For me, I was actually pretty pissed for a while, in between bouts of cracking up. Less because my expectations were shattered (which they were) and more because of the seeming simplicity of the whole thing. "Wait, what? This is it? I did all that, to get right here!!!"

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10 years 1 month ago #18609 by Kate Gowen
Comes down to it, BOTH statements amount to skillful means:"Awakening is a HUGE shift"-- and "Awakening is no big deal." And, but for the exceptional few, and the accidental buddhas, I think a teacher is needed, to know which is called for, and to call us out on our ever-so-cleverness, that tells us that this is something we're interested in philosophically, or that understanding the language and concepts are all it takes, or that the rote repetition the prescribed number of hours of a practice routine will suffice, or that some version of the seeker is going to be so stoked, or relieved, or vindicated by awakening, or that evaluative criteria have diddly squat to do with anything.

Most of us need outside help to undermine, turn upside down, whisk out of our grasp (and, indeed, out of "existence") everything that we know. Which is why the immediate aftermath frequently seems to involve a lot of dumbfounded babbling. Awakening in some ways is stepping off the edge of the known world, where there be all manner of weird creatures that you used to have commonplace names for, and find uninteresting. One of them is "yourself."

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10 years 1 month ago - 10 years 1 month ago #18610 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Awakening is no big deal?

Justin wrote: ...

For me, at the moment, I'm honestly more interested in this from an intellectual standpoint, wondering why the accounts of awakening are so varied and seemingly contradictory. In terms of practice, my seeker is still here, so I will continue on for as long as I have this "insight disease", and so I can draw my own conclusions.


Since I know you offline and love you dearly, I'll call you on that: liar, liar, pants on fire. :D (Kate called you on it, too, though more gently.)

Been there, done that, and it's a desire to have some kind of certainty and orientation when reality is starting to feel too unknown. In fact I'm doing it a bit right now with my reaching out to Catholic spiritual directors. Alan used to say when I was in the thick of it: "Embrace not knowing." That's really good advice for your current circumstances. It's not a problem - but it's really helpful to gain the knack of seeing through your motives as it helps point you to a more honest recognition of what's going on. You will see more of them in time, and it's quite entertaining after a while.
Last edit: 10 years 1 month ago by Ona Kiser. Reason: reworded some stuff

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10 years 1 month ago #18613 by Chris Marti

It seems like a person's response to awakening depends to a large degree on the expectations he or she had prior to awakening. That makes sense to me because it helps to explain the vast differences in how people explain their experiences of awakening. I've seen descriptions of awakening that noted clarity of mind, realization of the true nature of self, realization of the true nature of everything, a more frictionless experience with less attachment to emotions, the end of depression (Kenneth Folk), the end of fear (Adyashanti), greater compassion, etc.


I can say this now and would have been in your shoes five years ago -- but I'd suggest you forget all of this stuff and just keep practicing. You're chasing a will o' the wisp and feeding your ego, all at the same time.

:-)

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10 years 1 month ago - 10 years 1 month ago #18614 by Justin
Replied by Justin on topic Awakening is no big deal?
Considering recent responses, I'm going to just take the advice of forgetting about all of this, embracing not knowing, and continuing to practice. :) Thanks to everybody for your input!
Last edit: 10 years 1 month ago by Justin.

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10 years 1 month ago - 10 years 1 month ago #18616 by Russell
Last edit: 10 years 1 month ago by Russell.

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10 years 1 month ago #18618 by every3rdthought

Russell wrote: And read this! ;) www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1401927599


"Frequently Bought Together
Buy this with Buddhist Boot Camp (Hardcover)"

:lol:

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10 years 1 month ago #18619 by nadav
Replied by nadav on topic Awakening is no big deal?
Reminds me of this classic piece of pragmatic dharma scripture: www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...#_19_message_4586894

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10 years 1 month ago #18719 by Kate Gowen
Something on another thread made me muse, and chuckle at the texture of Chris's and my tendency to violently agree-- using our differing vocabularies and preoccupations:

"I don't know that I did anything special, or different. I just wondered about what I was not seeing. I have no idea what caused me to see it. No clue. It just happened. I may as well have been struck by lightning." (Chris)

Every dharma forum needs its Laurel and Hardy, or Marx siblings (with apologies to the literal Laurel, if I'm stepping on her aspirations.)

:dry:

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10 years 1 month ago #18721 by Chris Marti
I think I'm Groucho, if for no other reason than disposition ;-)

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