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TOPIC: Flow vs meditation

Flow vs meditation 06 Nov 2013 08:52 #16156

Okay and agreed, the important thing is that experiences of not-self or flowing-not-self doesn't necessarily mean that everything has been "seen" in the realm of non-duality.

Furthermore, speaking for myself, even though I can "understand/know" that form is emptiness, argue that point, provide examples of experiences that "prove" that... I suspect I'm still skimming the surface of it and don't really get it in my bones. My last call with a teacher was humbling because on one hand, I felt like I cracked the code, but on the other hand it was clear I'm not fluent in the code yet ---- so to speak.


Jack, have we sufficiently beat this thing to death? :D
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Flow vs meditation 06 Nov 2013 12:23 #16161

shargrol wrote:
I suspect I'm still skimming the surface of it and don't really get it in my bones. My last call with a teacher was humbling because on one hand, I felt like I cracked the code, but on the other hand it was clear I'm not fluent in the code yet ---- so to speak.

Wow. I remember being in that place, though I doubt I ever expressed it quite so eloquently and succinctly as you did here.

It does tend to start as a pinprick, but this is certainly no reason to lament. The opening gradually gets wider, even though it can seem like it expands and contracts unpredictably in the short term.
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Flow vs meditation 09 Nov 2013 16:41 #16243

Here is a question that has come up for me occasionally over the last 10 years. To paraphrase a quotation from A. N. Whitehead, what do I do on a rainy Sunday afternoon when the family is out of the house and I don’t feel like reading, going for a run, etc. At these times sometimes I am hungry for stimulation, for doing something, anything. Hot spicy food, sweets, going for a run. Whatever. Sometimes I turn to meditation, either formal or informal. But, that is another form of doing. What do I do when I am not doing? I could do the non-dual meditation that I do doing formal meditation. I could just be with that vague, bored feeling. But, all that is still a form of doing. How do I just be? Is just being important?

This question has come up less and less lately, After some thought about my first post in this thread, what I will tell my friend is about my own experience. As my practice progresses, albeit slowly and in fits and starts, the insights and mental states experienced during meditation are slowly seeping into my non-meditation life. My practice is changing me. At times, I can relax, not do, and feel at peace with whatever happens. The difference between flow and non-dual mind seems to disappear. No difference.
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Flow vs meditation 09 Nov 2013 16:54 #16244

jackhat1 wrote:
Here is a question that has come up for me occasionally over the last 10 years. To paraphrase a quotation from A. N. Whitehead, what do I do on a rainy Sunday afternoon when the family is out of the house and I don’t feel like reading, going for a run, etc. At these times sometimes I am hungry for stimulation, for doing something, anything. Hot spicy food, sweets, going for a run. Whatever. Sometimes I turn to meditation, either formal or informal. But, that is another form of doing. What do I do when I am not doing? I could do the non-dual meditation that I do doing formal meditation. I could just be with that vague, bored feeling. But, all that is still a form of doing. How do I just be? Is just being important?

The body needs a heck of a lot more exercise than most modern westerners people give it. We are designed to walk miles and miles every day, not sit around with the exception of an occasional session at the gym or jog around the park. And sometimes being bored is best addressed by engaging in an engaging hobby of some sort that uses the mind and body - gardening, guitar, some sort of art or craft, or something social, like visiting old people, going to the dog park, taking the relatives or neighbors kids to a museum, etc.
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Flow vs meditation 09 Nov 2013 18:03 #16252

Ona, thanks for the reply. The issue I was obviously unsuccessfully trying to get at was doing versus not doing. I can find plenty to do to prevent myself from feeling bored.

I agree physical exercise is very important. I try to get in my 10,000 steps a day plus 6-10 hours of tennis a week.
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Flow vs meditation 09 Nov 2013 18:12 #16253

Being with is pretty close to non-doing. That is, when you just notice sensations, feelings, etc as they arise and pass, without trying to make them go away or change, that's "not doing."

Technically there's some level of doing in the noticing/paying attention itself, but for practical purposes it doesn't matter and to try to work around that is counterproductive, because it is trying to manipulate experience and overthink things.

Being with, just sitting, etc. is always intended to be non-manipulative. Allow whatever arises to arise and pass without interference, simply observing/being with it.
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Flow vs meditation 09 Nov 2013 19:46 #16256

I don't like the "doing vs. being" dichotomy, because I don't find it all that accurate or helpful. I think of it more in terms of "being natural vs. being contrived." If we can't bring our realization into our morning jog, or our going out for happy hour with co-workers, what good is it? Being-in-the-world involves doing. Wei wu wei, and all that jazz.
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Flow vs meditation 09 Nov 2013 20:00 #16259

That's a good distinction Jackson.

From a Christian mystical text, the distinction between surrender/renunciation and engagement:

"…we ought to resign and forsake all things, this is not to be taken in the sense that a man is neither to do nor to purpose anything…. outward things must be, and we must do and refrain so far as is necessary, especially we must sleep and wake, walk and stand still, speak and be silent and much more of the like. These must go on so long as we live." (Theologia Germanica)
Last Edit: 09 Nov 2013 20:02 by Ona Kiser.
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Flow vs meditation 10 Nov 2013 07:12 #16263

“Free-to-do” versus “doing freely” (and super-ego energy)

I just want to say that I appreciate the domain where Jack is speaking from. (Before I completely pin this on Jack, let me say it’s very much my experience, so I’m probably completely projecting. But I think it’s worth talking about so I’m going to go with it.)

There is a “knot” that I don't always hear people talking about. Some people don't experience it at all, some people seem experience it after awakening and untangle it then, some people experience it before awakening.

The knot: There can almost be a state-like experience of having a very intimate appreciation of life, moments of non-dual insights, and a deep understanding of non-duality. Flow off the cushion is natural and meditation on the cushion is natural. And yet.

Not much more to say about it, except there’s something else, too. It really doesn’t even feel like a knot, but something is there.

This flavor of knot is pretty common throughout mediation practice. The moment we first have a moment of simply experiencing the world, without the struggle of a bunch of thinking, we go "wow, is this it?" And it some ways it is, but there is still all the rest of our stuff, our baggage, our suffering... All the other stuff is obviously there, all knotted up, so even if this open experience is it, we know we have a lot of work still to do...

It becomes a strangely maddening state after our practice is well established and territories of mind have been explored. We have a heck of a lot less stuff, baggage, suffering -- sure we have some, and we’re more sensitive to it, but it seems like awakened people have the same stuff. We have access to states of mind that are beyond what we would have ever imagined when we start the practice. We have genuinely refined our morality, we’re genuinely good people – sure we still have hang-ups, but it seems like awakened people have the same sort of hang-ups. It’s strangely maddening because we don’t even let ourselves get too mad about it. Really, we can’t bring ourselves to get mad at it. Our practice and our life has taught us that wanting something, especially something we don’t seem to even understand, is basically just a waste of time, basically just beating our head against the wall. Why do that?

And yet.

It seems like there must be something that separates awakened people from this kind of experience. Maybe not these kinds of sensations or even the experience itself, but the context for it. There is still a hunch that something might be missing, something not yet seen.

So, at this point, I should say again, that this may be particular to me, but I have a hunch it has some universality, so I’m going with it…

Hanging out in the domain of the knot is tricky, because on one hand it doesn’t seem worth the trouble, but on the other hand it is like a small section of folded-up sock in our shoe. It kinda bugs you, but it isn’t a problem.

The thing that I’m 90% sure of is that it is worth exploring that knot. That’s the whole reason I’m writing.

When I spent some time really getting into this subtle sense of lack, I was surprised by how connected it was to my entire being, even the history of my being. This sense of slight wrongness was the same tone as the tone of my conscience. And yet, it wasn’t quite that. It definitely was NOT entirely protective or wise. Sitting with it and putting a gentle but non-aggressive energy into it made me recoil in a way that was disproportionate to the “size” of the knot itself. It was a pretty primal little knot.

The best I can describe it is this knot was a sense of “I can’t” – something that seems to offer protection from strong experiences, but is fundamentally fearful and pulling away. It had been with me my entire life. Entering into the domain of exploring it produced a kind of terror, as if my questioning it would make me lose my mind entirely. It would untether my whole ability to relate to experience and lose all ability to make judgements. Wow.

I was concurrently reading the Spirtual Bypassing book and it said, somewhere in there, that much of what needs to be done is to explore the yucky sensations of the super-ego and regain that energy as our own. Without exploring how emotions actually are, we can be running on a program that we don’t quite see, yet still controls us.

Meditation practice is a big riddle: how come when I have free time, am well-fed and rested, am perfectly safe… how come when I simply sit down with nothing to do, my mind suffers? Where is the struggle coming from, why do I seem to be my own worst enemy?

I have a feeling that a lot of it is just versions of untangling this same knot. Whether you call it super-ego or ignorance or something else, there is an energy that says 1) what is happening isn’t quite right, 2) you need to do something about it, 3) or else.

The #3 aspect is very subtle, a subtle sense of dread or wrongness, but I suspect it’s this last knot. I can see that with this subtle sense of wrongness would keep us feeling slightly un-free when we’re free to do whatever we want. It’s probably difference between knowing, completely, that we’re free versus that feeling that somehow we’re just free to entertain ourselves for the moment.

Whew, so long post and much of it speculative, but I hope it adds to the discussion in some way.
Last Edit: 10 Nov 2013 07:15 by shargrol.
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Flow vs meditation 10 Nov 2013 09:56 #16267

Huge "YES" to that, Shargrol. I have knots that are very much worth exploring. There are gross a subtle senses of self and the history of self that have roots deep in the psyche and a lifetime of behavioral habit. It's all great fodder for practice, and I don't see any end to it. This is the place where practice and psychology meet, too, so a good therapist is something I've been considering while I continue to explore from the phenomenological POV in practice. My thinking about this got a boost in Boulder at the BG conference this year, where I observed some things that have nagged me since.

Great post!
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Flow vs meditation 10 Nov 2013 10:56 #16270

Yes to your post, Shargrol. This is a Zen analogy that I am reminded of: The winds of life blow through us. Sometimes these winds blow through us unhindered. But, often they are blocked by some knot and create a disturbance.

Your post reminds me that those times when I cast around for something to do, it is to fill a feeling of lack within me.

By the way, when I have posted about not doing, things are still getting done.

I have found a technique called Focusing (www.focusing.org/) supplies the psychological help I need. I am presently exploring The Sedona Method which is an emptiness based psychology method. Gary Weber had recommended it in one of this talks.
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Flow vs meditation 10 Nov 2013 11:27 #16271

Chris Marti wrote:
... and I don't see any end to it.

Neither do I, Chris. It may not be a popular idea in some pragmatic dharma scenes, but I don't believe that any human being has ever attained a completely spotless, purified, knot-free condition - not even old Gautama himself.

I think the perfect Buddha is an amazing archetype, and it has experiential roots. Many of us know the temporary experience of unbound, knot-free awareness. The possibility is there. We can practice to the point where these periods of knot-free-ness are stable for rather extended periods, but there's absolutely NO guarantee that a knot won't show up later.

That's why treasure Dogen's view that practice and realization cannot really be separated. As human beings, the best we can expect is to become skillful practitioners, and that's a very good thing to be!
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Flow vs meditation 20 Dec 2013 17:31 #17516

hey. this is one the topics I am most interested as it was certain states of flow which led me down a spiritual path in the first place.
I have some fascinating opinions on this topic which I am sure you'd all love to hear :) as I have currently been making some movement workshops about flow and non-dual states. Any feedback would be welcomed...

states of flow and how they relate to awakening - some thoughts

The non-awakened person is non-awakened because they cannot shake away the false belief that the thinking part of their mind is actually themselves, that the thinking part of the mind is the self, the control-centre, their identity, which controls and runs the whole bodymind show.
The awakened person merely sees the thinking part of their mind as just more stuff happening in their experience, not the control centre, not anything special.

With this in mind, there are 3 states to look at

1. Normal state (no flow)
The thinking (supposedly conscious) aspect of the bodymind dominates experience, and it believes it is running the show.

2. Basic Flow state
The doingness of the body dominates experience, and the thinking part of bodymind takes a backseat, BUT still believes it's running the show somehow.
Pleasurable, like chopping carrots or playing a videogame. "Huh? I was engrossed in playing piano"

3. In-the-Zone Flow State (non-dual experience)
There are rarer, stunning states, which can happen e.g. in sports, where sensory and body-doing-stuff behaviour dominate experience to such a degree that the person recognises that the thinking part of bodymind actually isn't running the show at all, and that everything is happily happening without the bit of their mind they usually assume is 'them'. People say things like "It was like, my body, but being guided by something else..... it was like I wasn't there... like I was watching myself do stuff". Normally these states are interrupted when people start to have thoughts, and people then start to believe again that the thinking part of bodymind is running the show.

(there are other interesting aspects of being in the zone - like time perception - but these are not as relevant to non-duality)

non-duality

So the interesting one is 3 which is a non-dual (of some sort) experience in which the truth about the nature of mindbody is experienced (for short time). In state 3, there is the opportunity to turn this experience of non-duality into a recognition. People normally interpret the state as it is "I went away, and body was doing stuff, I wasn't there... then I came back like normal".

But if they interpret instead as "There is no I that runs the show. I saw this clearly for a short time" that is, they recognise that this state 3 is the Truth, the baseline, the Big Self, the No-Self, this is God, this is non-duality (these are more Advaita than Buddhist terms) - if this happens, people realize their first fleeting (or who knows, it might stick) glimpse of non-duality and it's called stream entry (not in the vipassana sense, more in the zen sense, but a similar level of attainment). This is how non-dual satsang teachers like Papaji work. ( papaji awakens someone in 4 minutes - link ). They get people to recognise that the state they are temporarily experiencing is what they are looking for.

The interesting questions are then - how do you get state 3 (temporary non-dual experience) to happen - and when people are having the experience, how do you turn that experience into a recognition, aka a realisation of non-duality.

So I have been working on movement meditation exercises which focus on getting people really into their sense fields, clearly noting thoughts if they arise, and moving around. They note the body moving around by itself, obviously without thinking. Then I am working on how to use direct pointing maybe, or other exercises like trying to find the source of control of their body's movement (more like a movement version of "Who am I?" ). Am finding this research v interesting at the moment. Thanks for listening.
Last Edit: 20 Dec 2013 17:39 by Sadalsuud.
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Flow vs meditation 20 Dec 2013 19:06 #17517

One issue with linking that sort of "super flow" state to insight into the nature of things is that those states can occur in all sorts of contexts that have nothing to do with insight, or with a particular sort of insight. Just for random example, years ago I practiced a religion called Santeria. In the context of various rituals people would go into trance and be possessed by deities or spirits. Depending on various factors this could be a sort of intuitive spontaneous state where they did or said things that just flowed "from the spirit" but they were conscious of themselves as themselves; or they might fall into a deeper trance-like state where there was continued awareness/consciousness, but their body did and said things under control of the spirit (ie with no sense of personal agency at all), but there would still be internal "witness" type state and memory of what had happened afterwards (it feels like being a puppet, quite weird); or they might become completely unconscious of themselves and not remember anything until the spirit left them later on. So here were three different kinds of experiences where the sense of agency faded or dropped away, but they had no relationship to the kind of insight people talk about in these forums on awakening.

That said, I know a very few priests in that tradition who appear to have developed some of the fruits of the process of awakening that many religious traditions point to, such as a deep acceptance of the ups and downs of life, generosity, patience, loving kindness, non-defensiveness, and so forth. These seem to develop less from the trance states (which not everyone receives - some people have a propensity, others have other 'gifts' such as art, music, cooking, divination, whatever) than from the teaching common to many devotional traditions of constantly reminding oneself that everything is in God's hands; that all events of ones life, good or bad, are gifts from which to grow and learn; setting aside ones self-interests in favor of helping the community; and so on. The "ideal" is for a person to reach a state of harmony with their destiny - which is not unlike saying that there is minimal clinging and aversion - which is identified not by their experiences but by how they behave (the virtues listed above, for instance). However, there's a lot of room for quirkiness and individuality (often seen as an expression of the specific gods you are devoted too - so the devotee of a fiery god will be expected to be energetic, feisty, etc.)

Just throwing that in the pond.
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Flow vs meditation 20 Dec 2013 19:38 #17519

My best guess is "flow" needs to be taken off the table as having anything to do with insight. It's an interesting experience and stress-free experience. I like it a lot. But almost every human being has had it and it doesn't change a baseline sense of self. It's remarkable and eye opening... but I don't think it's insight. I mean it's clearly recognizable as a state right?
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Flow vs meditation 20 Dec 2013 20:16 #17521

One perhaps interesting related idea would be jhana - jhanas are a kind of trance state or altered state, which one can train oneself to enter in specific sequences and patterns (I have very little deliberate jhana training, though I've experienced jhanas "accidentally" (as identified by a teacher I described some states to) and occasionally on purpose (as directed by a friend who coached me a few times) so those with more experience please correct me if I'm wrong). These states are obviously not "awakeness" at all, and presumably one could train in jhanas all ones life and never have any insight ("jhana junkie syndrome") but in some forms of Buddhism they are recommended as part of training. So like flow states, drug states, altered states of various sorts, they don't have anything to do with insight in and of themselves... but they are incorporated into some practices and seem to be thought useful. Why?
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Flow vs meditation 20 Dec 2013 20:31 #17522

Ah good. Yes, flow and jhana thins the sense of self, but neither are no-self.
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Flow vs meditation 21 Dec 2013 06:10 #17528

Hi Shargol, this is not meant as a rhetorical question, but a genuine one, did you read the thing I wrote above? I am sort of saying the exact opposite to what you're saying, and pointing to how one can turn states of super-flow, into genuine awakening insight. If you disagree with what is written there that's of course totally cool, I was just wondering if you had read it and maybe what I had written wasn't clear? Sorry if this seems rude, it's honestly not meant to be.

As a more concrete example I was once in a Charles Berner style Enlightenment Intensive weekend run by a Rinzai zen roshi. (These are weekends where people do pair self-inquiry the whole weekend in order to try have breakthough non-dual realisations). One of the participants (long time seeker) had a big breakthrough there, seeing (and crucially recognising) the no-self / big-self - SE or maybe MCTB 2nd path-esque moment, in an interview with the roshi. When I spoke to him afterwards, he knew the non-dual state he was now in (kensho) he was in was the same state of superflow he'd once experienced when he had looked into his wife's eyes and he'd disappeared. So my point is, these superflow states are exactly non-dual states (aka awakened "states"), but the criticial factor, like Ona said, is that one needs to REALIZE what these states are and REALIZE what they mean about the true nature of self. Otherwise they just arise and pass as 'funny experiences'. The guy in this story was a long time seeker, and had actually been in these non-dual superflow "states" before, but he never realized (until that day being in front of the roshi) that these states were pointing to exactly the thing he as looking for.

Shargol:
My best guess is "flow" needs to be taken off the table as having anything to do with insight. It's an interesting experience and stress-free experience. I like it a lot. But almost every human being has had it and it doesn't change a baseline sense of self. It's remarkable and eye opening... but I don't think it's insight. I mean it's clearly recognizable as a state right?

Ona:
Thanks for pointing me to this thread and it sounds like you have been in some really interesting practice contexts!! I also was interested in why people who experience states of superflow a lot, get a bit 'spiritual' as you mention, in my experience, board riders, adrenaline junkies. One of my idols when I was younger is pro surfer /yogi dave rastavich - pretty cool dude, very beautiful video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFY4ZFvwf78
Last Edit: 21 Dec 2013 06:13 by Sadalsuud.
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Flow vs meditation 21 Dec 2013 07:08 #17529

Sadalsuud wrote:
Hi Shargol, this is not meant as a rhetorical question, but a genuine one, did you read the thing I wrote above? I am sort of saying the exact opposite to what you're saying, and pointing to how one can turn states of super-flow, into genuine awakening insight. If you disagree with what is written there that's of course totally cool, I was just wondering if you had read it and maybe what I had written wasn't clear? Sorry if this seems rude, it's honestly not meant to be.

Yes, I am doubtful about the power of flow states turning into genuine awakening. It's a pretty common train of thought, but it seems to lead to people making a duality out of flow and not-flow states and avoids the question "what is observing states of flow?". I'm not saying it's impossible, of course. Just that there can be a fascination with states without investigating their stateness.

I'm definitely willing to be wrong on this.
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Flow vs meditation 21 Dec 2013 07:22 #17531

And just to throw another stone in the pond, what occurred to me this morning: why do some spiritual traditions heavily *de*-emphasize paying attention to different states? Someone told me that in his Zen tradition any kind of "spiritual experience" or "state" of any kind was dismissed as "mako" (don't remember how to spell it, but that's the term I recall) and to be ignored. Some forms of Christian teaching also tend to have this sort of response, discouraging any discussion of personal experiences, special states etc.

I think in part this is to discourage what Shargrol pointed to, which is the reifying of certain states - which is basically clinging - which then sets up this dichotomy between "good and bad states", and a practice where one keeps trying to generate states that one feels are beneficial rather than recognizing the equality of all experience.

If "every moment is equally worthy of mindfulness" - then why is sitting in the hot sun with a sore toe any more or less sacred than being in a flow moment on the dance floor, or driving a taxi, or....
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Flow vs meditation 21 Dec 2013 07:53 #17532

Ona Kiser wrote:
Someone told me that in his Zen tradition any kind of "spiritual experience" or "state" of any kind was dismissed as "mako" (don't remember how to spell it, but that's the term I recall) and to be ignored. Some forms of Christian teaching also tend to have this sort of response, discouraging any discussion of personal experiences, special states etc.

And it's important to remember that this discouragement is done within a broader context of encouragement. (Not understanding that messed me up for years.) Spiritual states are important and rewarding and healing and can even be markers for "progress". . Jhana states and flow states are great and very much worth having. So the flip side of all of this is that not-clinging to states shouldn't turn into a nihilistic self-punishing exercise either.
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Flow vs meditation 21 Dec 2013 09:43 #17533

shargrol wrote:
Ona Kiser wrote:
Someone told me that in his Zen tradition any kind of "spiritual experience" or "state" of any kind was dismissed as "mako" (don't remember how to spell it, but that's the term I recall) and to be ignored. Some forms of Christian teaching also tend to have this sort of response, discouraging any discussion of personal experiences, special states etc.

And it's important to remember that this discouragement is done within a broader context of encouragement. (Not understanding that messed me up for years.) Spiritual states are important and rewarding and healing and can even be markers for "progress". . Jhana states and flow states are great and very much worth having. So the flip side of all of this is that not-clinging to states shouldn't turn into a nihilistic self-punishing exercise either.

LOL - not that Middle Way thing again! :D
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Flow vs meditation 22 Dec 2013 04:28 #17547

hey ona, shargol

I think when talking about flow it's important to maybe define better between conditions which could be called a state, and something else, which is what I am calling a recognition of the truth or perhaps belief.

For example in super-flow (what I call stage 3) the following "conditions" are often reported:
- time slowing down (normally caused by adrenaline), or even a sense of timelessness
- the visual field, or other sense fields becoming empty, incredibly vivid (free of inherent objects)
- clarity of thought, or no thought
- peace and stillness, even timelessness
- energy in the body surging
- pleasure
- spaciousness

None of these conditions are that important with regards to awakening, but because they feel interesting and good, people may chase after them as future experiences. Which is why I guess teachers discourage students fixating on them.

The stunning and important thing about state 3 superflow is the "It was like someone else's body.... It was I was being moved by an outside force" insight. This is not really a condition or feeling. It is that for a short time it is RECOGNISED that the thinking part of the mind (the part which non awakened people identify themselves with) is not actually doing anything, is not in control, is not running the show. It is noticed, it is seen clearly, that nothing the that person normally thinks of as 'them' is singlehandedly running the show.

People report "I was just watching my body doing, it wasn't ME doing anything". This is exactly the same normal "state" of non-belief that an awakened person has (although an awakened person has integrated this insight 'correctly').

So forgetting all the stuff about pleasure and flow, the super flow (state 3) has as its core feature (in my just made up schema), this temporary drop in belief of a "self which is in control of the bodymind". This important feature of superflow is not a 'state' or feeling it's simply a temporary drop away of this false belief, exactly as the awakened condition is (but permenently). Does that make sense?
Last Edit: 22 Dec 2013 04:34 by Sadalsuud.
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Flow vs meditation 22 Dec 2013 11:13 #17552

A suggested reading on Flow:

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athlete...ce-beyond-state-flow

A quote:
Superfluidity has a mystical and divine element to it. If you seek it out, and chase it down, and invite it in, you will experience it. Superfluidity is not something elitist that is reserved for a select few. It is egalitarian. Any human being who works hard, trusts him or herself, learns to let go, and have grace under pressure can create Superfluidity. Stay internally motivated, relaxed, focused and fully aligned with the task at hand and you will have Superfluid breakthroughs, I guarantee

Sound familiar? It's being sold like meditation is often sold, as a life-enhancing practice.
Last Edit: 22 Dec 2013 11:13 by Chris Marti.
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Flow vs meditation 22 Dec 2013 11:17 #17553

Anyway, the question that occurs to me is "What is the relationship between Flow and meditation, even awakening?" Is one a form of the other? Does one lead to the other? In what order?

Always fascinating...
Last Edit: 22 Dec 2013 11:17 by Chris Marti.
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