Frustration and deliverance

Or "Get Me Out of Here!".

I have been practicing a lot over the last month or so, typically sitting twice a day for 40-50 minutes each. Not a lot by retreat standards, but as good as I can muster as a householder. A while back, I thought I was doing great, and my sits would put me into this really still and calm place where I was barely aware of my breath and I could feel my core pulse, moving my body ever so gently like a tall flag pole. I thought to myself "equanimity, baby". Most recently, however, it seems like I have hit a brick wall and I am getting nowhere.

My typical sits involve some amount of concentration, but way less than before. Thoughts intrude and, worse, I seem to have lost my ability to not get engaged in them and I will zone out for many minutes. Physically, it is even more disturbing. I am literally *wracked* by shakes throughout my entire upper body. Sometimes they are uncontrollable shivers like you have a bad flu, but other times I am almost knocked off my cushion. When I end a sit in this state, (sometimes prematurely) it takes up to 10 minutes for the shaking to subside.

Some other data points, if they help. I see amorphous blobs behind my eyelids, but nothing really recognizable or "vision-like". And very recently, I have had several occurrences of a noticeable tingling at the crown of my head.

Right now, I am on a business trip which has afforded me a lot of time to sit: at least 90 min in the morning and another 90 min at night. Not to mention the 4 hr sit I had on the plane ride down. But with all that time, I don't know how to crack this. In re-reading MCTB, it would seem that I am in the misery/disgust/deliverance/re-observation rut, but that is just me guessing. If true, however, what am I supposed to learn from this? How do I go past it?

(cont'd)

(cont'd)

I read the "Re-Observation" chapter, and it is like it was written for me: "aversion to meditation", check; "noise in our repetitive minds quite irritating", check; "desire to roll up the mat", check. I am not happy being in this place, but "this last important lesson, the lesson of Re-observation" is totally eluding me. I will say that on a couple of occasions, while I have tried to impassively watch this turbulence, I end up in a very peaceful place. But only for a few minutes, and it is back to the Exorcist.

The advice in MCTB seems to be "stick with it", but what does that mean, exactly? And again, how/what am I supposed to learn? Is this just a physical process that I need to just sit through while my body's energy systems do whatever it is they are doing, or is there some take-away item here that I am missing?

I would be grateful for any advice, cuz my mat is half rolled.

"(cont'd)

I read the "Re-Observation" chapter, and it is like it was written for me: "aversion to meditation", check; "noise in our repetitive minds quite irritating", check; "desire to roll up the mat", check. I am not happy being in this place, but "this last important lesson, the lesson of Re-observation" is totally eluding me. I will say that on a couple of occasions, while I have tried to impassively watch this turbulence, I end up in a very peaceful place. But only for a few minutes, and it is back to the Exorcist.

The advice in MCTB seems to be "stick with it", but what does that mean, exactly? And again, how/what am I supposed to learn? Is this just a physical process that I need to just sit through while my body's energy systems do whatever it is they are doing, or is there some take-away item here that I am missing?

I would be grateful for any advice, cuz my mat is half rolled."

Maybe there is no lesson, and that is what you have to learn.

David

"(cont'd)

I read the "Re-Observation" chapter, and it is like it was written for me: "aversion to meditation", check; "noise in our repetitive minds quite irritating", check; "desire to roll up the mat", check. I am not happy being in this place, but "this last important lesson, the lesson of Re-observation" is totally eluding me. I will say that on a couple of occasions, while I have tried to impassively watch this turbulence, I end up in a very peaceful place. But only for a few minutes, and it is back to the Exorcist.

The advice in MCTB seems to be "stick with it", but what does that mean, exactly? And again, how/what am I supposed to learn? Is this just a physical process that I need to just sit through while my body's energy systems do whatever it is they are doing, or is there some take-away item here that I am missing?

I would be grateful for any advice, cuz my mat is half rolled."

Man, I know exactly what you're talking about. You're right in thinking that you just need to be with it. I know it's difficult, but it's the only way to get past it.

When this first started happening to me, the only way I could get past it is to go for a walk. I would greet any and everything in nature, on the road, in my head and in my heart the same way: Hello pain. Hello shakes. Hello confusion. Please, stay for a while. Tell me what you've come to say.

It sounds cheesy, but this open and inviting technique really works. At least it did for me. Eventually, you will gain equanimity of these formations and get a break from the madness. There is a lesson to learn in all of this, and you'll get it. You just have to trust the process and surrender to it. Accept the hell out of your experience, no matter what it is.

Don't give up!

There's no particular lesson to learn from this, Tomo, it's just the dukkha ñanas. It's actually very predictable and expected. This is what happens as the unstable strata of mind in between 3rd and 4th jhana are developing. The more you can accept, the less it will hurt. It's hard to concentrate now, because objects disappear as soon as you notice them, and you can't lock onto objects the way you could before. Allow your focus to become more diffuse. Try being aware of all of the surface of your skin at once. Let your mind settle into this new level of subtlety.

Kenneth

"There's no particular lesson to learn from this, Tomo, it's just the dukkha ñanas. It's actually very predictable and expected. This is what happens as the unstable strata of mind in between 3rd and 4th jhana are developing. The more you can accept, the less it will hurt. It's hard to concentrate now, because objects disappear as soon as you notice them, and you can't lock onto objects the way you could before. Allow your focus to become more diffuse. Try being aware of all of the surface of your skin at once. Let your mind settle into this new level of subtlety.

Kenneth"

Ok, I can work with this, I think. Thank you. But to be clear, I am only thinking there is a lesson because that is the terminology in MCTB. I am, generally, confused about all the "insights" I am supposed to learn when, on the one hand, apparently all I need to know are the 3C. But that said, I can totally accept the "strata" argument because I think the physio-energetic model makes more sense to my engineering mind.

But to drill this home a bit more, can you offer any other options for allowing my "focus to become more diffuse", in case the skin thing does not work? I have been feeling for a little while now that I need to "expand" my "awareness", but I don't know how. I don't want to be a suck, but I feel as though I need some major hand-holding here. I just want to peek at back of book and look at the answer.

"Maybe there is no lesson, and that is what you have to learn.

David"

There is no spoon, eh?

"Man, I know exactly what you're talking about. You're right in thinking that you just need to be with it. I know it's difficult, but it's the only way to get past it.
...
There is a lesson to learn in all of this, and you'll get it. You just have to trust the process and surrender to it. Accept the hell out of your experience, no matter what it is.

Don't give up!"

Thanks, Jackson. When I re-read MCTB (or the relevant parts) after a bit of a hiatus, I saw so much that I recognized this is not unique. Thus my plea for help because clearly many have passed through this. But since both David and Kenneth chimed in with "there is no lesson", and you did not, can I ask you what the lesson is from your point of view? Because as I said to Kenneth, I am not always getting the implied "lesson" at each of these stages, and more just sitting through my body and mind rewiring itself. That's ok as long as I am not spending futile energy looking for something that is not there.

Hi Tom,

After re-reading this, my previous post seemed unempathic. I realize what you're dealing with sucks. My previous experience suggests to me that the "lesson," if there is one, at certain stages is not conceptual - there's nothing to "take home" and add to your conceptual map. Some of these dukkha nanas have to do with a *lack* of meaning, and dealing with that. They have a lot to do with aversion as well. Jackson's advice to accept all of your experience is critical.

The problem is, if you seek some lesson, or otherwise *try* to get through it or out of it, that can prolong your stay.
The best thing is to see it for what it is and accept it, deal with it with equanamity and mindfulness.

What helped me in the past was to take a kind of warrior's attitude towards these negative states and transitions - that of impeccability. I would say to myself "I'm going to deal with the truth of this, no matter how unpleasant it is."

Then I would typically turn up the volume in various ways and go out and face it.
I truly hope that helps.
David

I can't do better than what David, Kenneth and Jackson said. So I'll just say hang in there, Tomo.

Here's another little bit that may or may not help:

The desire to escape from it is part of the trap.

"Thanks, Jackson. When I re-read MCTB (or the relevant parts) after a bit of a hiatus, I saw so much that I recognized this is not unique. Thus my plea for help because clearly many have passed through this. But since both David and Kenneth chimed in with "there is no lesson", and you did not, can I ask you what the lesson is from your point of view? Because as I said to Kenneth, I am not always getting the implied "lesson" at each of these stages, and more just sitting through my body and mind rewiring itself. That's ok as long as I am not spending futile energy looking for something that is not there."

Hi Tom,

It's a shame that you're getting what looks like conflicting advice in this thread. I don't think there is some great moral lesson to learn, like something at the end of a fable. It just has to do with learning to practice well.

The lesson, as I see it, is that trying to run away from the unsatisfactory experience of the dukkha nanas won't get you anywhere. I learned very early on that the only way to continue with progress was to accept, accept, accept whatever happened to be arising in the moment. That's the lesson. Anything that is arising in your experience is what you need to be mindful of, and it's best not to fight it. Fighting it only makes it worse and keeps it around longer.

This is all alluding to what Shinzen Young says about infusing every experience with mindfulness and equanimity. Not only do you need to pay attention to whatever arises, you also need to surrender to it. That's the lesson as I see it. I was stuck in the dark night for months before stream entry until I learned to balance mindfulness and acceptance with whatever showed up in my experience.

I hope that's more clear. Maybe others won't see this as a lesson, per se. It sure was for me.

I can think of two "lessons" from the Dark Night:
1. To learn how to not let all the dark stuff leak out to the rest of your life, especially family.
2. That resisting thoughts and feelings that appear to be negative and just "wrong" only gives them more strength and prolongs suffering, thus, all the groundwork for actual "equanimity" is developed.
I'm sure there is more, but for me at least it seems like this is the stage where the small self (ego? in modern babble?) wages a mighty battle to stay alive and keep duality powerful and insist that things go its way -- always.

Tom, in re-reading your comments and questions I noticed something that I think is important to address: you and I are not Daniel Ingram. Now, WTF do I mean by that?

I mean that MCTB is written from the perspective of someone who is done. Daniel is writing about experience after having done it time after time after time after time. You are going through this for the first time. You will not experience this the same way Daniel does. MCTB contains details, descriptions of phenomena and with subtleties therein that you and I will in all likelihood not encounter or experience. I went through EXACTLY what you are going through now in that regard. It might not be a bad idea for you stop working so hard to match your experience so closely to MCTB because in all likelihood... it won't. MCTB is a great book and extremely valuable in some ways. In other ways not so much because your experience will, by definition, be different.

There, I said it. I await the lightning bolt

Also, for more diffuse focus of awareness -- relax. Don't focus on just one thing. Pretend you're trying to focus on everything in your field of vision all at once. As Kenneth suggested, try to feel all of your skin. Try to hear everything you hear, but all at once. OPEN awareness is the way I think of it. OPEN being the operative term. You aren't trying to pin a fly on the wall with riveted, narrowly focused attention. You're trying to sit and just observe everything, all at once, in a calm, cool, relaxed way.

"the dukkha ñanas" -- great name for a rock band.

"
Tom, in re-reading your comments and questions I noticed something that I think is important to address: you and I are not Daniel Ingram. Now, WTF do I mean by that?

I mean that MCTB is written from the perspective of someone who is done. Daniel is writing about experience after having done it time after time after time after time. You are going through this for the first time. You will not experience this the same way Daniel does. MCTB contains details, descriptions of phenomena and with subtleties therein that you and I will in all likelihood not encounter or experience. I went through EXACTLY what you are going through now in that regard. It might not be a bad idea for you stop working so hard to match your experience so closely to MCTB because in all likelihood... it won't. MCTB is a great book and extremely valuable in some ways. In other ways not so much because your experience will, by definition, be different.
"

Chris,

It is funny you mention this, because one thing that has been bugging me about the whole "Progress" section of MCTB is that it is written from the standpoint of multiple Paths, so that what you see in a particular stage in, say, the third Path might be very different from what you see if you are pre-SE. I wish that there was a multi-layered version that showed not only the stages of insight, but how those stages could vary depending on how awakened you are.

And all, of course, with the YMMV caveat.

And thank you all for chiming in on this. I really appreciate the support.

"After re-reading this, my previous post seemed unempathic. I realize what you're dealing with sucks. "

I did not take it that way at all, David, but thank you for expanding your thoughts.

The lesson for me is to accept and surrender. This is easy to say but it's very hard to practice.

Most likely when you hear people say surrender and accept, you'll try to surrender and accept and this won't work. In my experience the faster I realized that there is nothing I can do about the misery, I mean nothing, not even trying to accept and surrender, the faster I'd come out of it.

Be miserable, angry, kick and scream or put up a courageous, hopeful and calm face it will still make no difference.

Surrender and acceptance come to you, you don't invoke them.

That's the lesson I learned and still learning.

Amr

"Be miserable, angry, kick and scream or put up a courageous, hopeful and calm face it will still make no difference.

Surrender and acceptance come to you, you don't invoke them." -Keeiton

Right.

I have no idea if this is related, but I will share this little experience.

While on the trip, I have been getting up at 5am to sit for 90 minutes or more, before getting ready for the day. Last night, I had a bit too much wine and a big meal so that, coupled with my frustration, made me blow off sitting last night and setting the alarm for 7 this morning.

But in the middle of the night, I had a dream where I was going into dokusan (which is weird in and of itself since I have never practiced Zen with a sensei/roshi). The "master", who was a friend of mine if I recall correctly, held up a mirror in front of my face that only seemed to reflect my eyes. I stared into my eyes, and then WHAM I was wide awake. Not only awake, but I had that full-headed sensation I get when I am deeply concentrated, as though I had been sitting for an hour or more in the good ole days (before the events described in this thread). I lay there for a good 30 minutes, feeling the sensations in my body, my skin being particularly creepy because I was suddenly really, really hot. I remember thinking "holy crap, this is sort of like what Chris describes", but I guess that spoiled it because I did not get any fantastic end result. I contemplated getting up and sitting more formally, but I needed the sleep.

The really weird thing: when I peeked at the clock it was 4:55.

Re the dokusan dream.
Clearly you are making progress, don't you think?
I say that because that experience sounds so similar to many other stories one hears about people near or on the verge of new insights.

"Re the dokusan dream.
Clearly you are making progress, don't you think?
I say that because that experience sounds so similar to many other stories one hears about people near or on the verge of new insights. "

To be brutally honest, I just don't know what to think anymore. I think I am "here" but I am "there". Others see this or that, but YMMV. But I have to admit that it is kind of an unusual dream for me, at a particularly "tipping point" kind of time.

"To be brutally honest, I just don't know what to think anymore. I think I am "here" but I am "there". Others see this or that, but YMMV. But I have to admit that it is kind of an unusual dream for me, at a particularly "tipping point" kind of time."

Yeah, if that happened to me I'd probably disregard any significance. But when it happens to you ....... !

So the update is as follows. I sat for 2 hours last night, and another 4 hours this morning. My first resolve was to, if sitting more than 1hr, break it up into chunks of 1hr with about 5 minutes of walking meditation in between. Secondly, I resolved to follow the conventional wisdom on DhO and KFD and just "get into" the tremors, ride them out, and not let them take over.

After just under an hour (before which I had pretty excellent concentration with the "flag pole" thing), I did notice the tremors starting, but I simply noted them, stuck with the breath, and did not get engaged. They were pretty light at this point, so it was not too hard. During the walking break, they actually amped up a bit, but I focused hard on the sensations of walking and again kept them at bay.

The second hour last night was a bit of a battle, but I came to the realization that the tremors actual start with my discomfort from sitting. My hip joints and knees begin to ache, but then I seem to do something unconsciously to really amp up the discomfort. I found the Shinzen Young reference particularly useful, where he makes the proposition that: Suffering = Pain x Resistance. Up the pain, and you up the suffering. Up the resistance, you also up the suffering. But if you reduce the resistance to zero, the suffering goes away. It was a useful mental model, and it really helped me ride it out and not get taken over.

This morning, the second hour was actually spent sitting on stool, to confirm that the tremors are based in physical discomfort. Interestingly, the were still there, but not nearly as much, so it would seem like my aversion to the pain is really messing things up.

(cont'd)

(cont'd)

Back to the cushion for the remaining two hours (with a walk in between), and I really worked on not resisting things. Also, I made a mental picture of me melting the tension in my shoulders and back, from the tremors, as well as melting the pain in my joints. I pictured myself simply melting away into a big lake and, I have to say, it was pretty effective. I had to come back to that several times, but each time, the outcome was a decent stillness. Ok, so the lake is a Buddhist simile, but I always liked it and could imagine me being still enough that the reflection of the moon on that lake was largely undisturbed.

It was a battle. Melting, shaking, some stillness. It really helped, also, when that stillness was accompanied by very, very light breathing. If I breathed too heavily, I would shudder and trip off the shakes.

One other thing: I wonder if some of this shaking is because I am genuinely cold? I deliberately made it warm as hell in my hotel room, but nonetheless, by the end my hands and nose are noticeably cool to the touch. Is this a known physiological thing? Just askin'.