Another take on our psychological "stuff"

Okay, like many of you and others that I've connected to basically because we all encountered Daniel Ingram's work somehow in the past several years, I was very impressed and even enboldened by so much of what he said and wrote. However, now, I'm looking back on a lot of it and seeing some possible divergence between some of his ideas (or how I interpreted his ideas) and where I'm at now.

When I first heard him talk about all the time wasted at intensive insight retreats with people trying to talk about and work on their "stuff" I thought he was so right. I think his point was that while personal psychological issues were important in their place, in vipassana such things were just not important and kept people from really doing the practice and making progress.

Now, as far as that goes, I still think he is right. However, I think I and maybe others went too far in that direction and got the idea that personal psychology was not only not important to the vipassana technique but also irrelevant to one's entire practice -- and, bascially, that personal psychological issues weren't effected by practice and vice versa.

This is clearly wrong.

If one is sincerely practicing -- sitting, being mindful, following the eight fold path,etc. they will surely awaken to the truth of who they really are in the ultimate sense, right? However, one will also, in great detail, awaken to all that they are in the relative, personal sense, One will begin to see just how their "stuff" effects themselves and the world around them. One will see all the things one does to screw things up, to create suffering rather than peace, to stay blind rather to wake up and see. (and, all the stuff that works, that is positive and good)

This really can't be avoided.

Right?

And both things, the relative and the ultimate, need to be considered and worked with as one continues to practice.

I'm also speaking here to the process of "spiritual bypassing" that Jackson writes about. Thinking one can bypass or somehow transcend personal issues seems to be a fundamental error for some of us (me included) can make. Though of course, not all practioners make this mistake.

The DNA, the habits, the patterns, the entrenched psychological reactions of the Mike Monson thing will have their way no matter what -- there really is no transcending. You are always there. And there.

I agree with that, Mike, but I'm not sure that Daniel Ingram wouldn't agree with us, too. If I recall MTCB correctly the passages about avoiding our "stuff" were focused mainly on getting folks through the states and stages by getting them to focus properly on the process of perception and not on psychology. I don't think Daniel ever asserts that psychology has no place at all in practice.

-cmarti

Right, I'm really just talking about how I've maybe misunderstood Ingram.

Right, I'm really just talking about how I've maybe misunderstood Ingram.


-michaelmonson

It's not just you, Mike. I think a LOT of people misunderstand what Ingram is trying to get across.

My take on that (and from similar discussion on the Hurricane Ranch podcasts) was that there just tends to be a level of obsession with personal issues, as if people are turning to practice as a form of psychotherapy, and getting stuck in their stories. Which certainly can be true for a lot of people - there are gobs of people who meditate pretty much just to reduce stress, even if they have some vague idea about enlightenment or even perhaps say to themselves and others that the point is enlightenment.

My own experience has been that the psychological stuff works itself out in mysterious ways as one practices, WITHOUT one paying attention to it directly. Just for example I recall a day when I was quite shocked to find I had just had an hour long conversation with a person I always found very hard to deal with, and had simply enjoyed a conversation. The baggage had dropped away. I had not "worked on it" at all. It was a complete surprise. Ditto a day when I got dangerously cut off in heavy traffic, nearly had an accident, and to my utter surprise just laughed and said "oops! careful there!" instead of becoming enraged and swearing like a pirate.

It does bring up a question I've often had, which is it seems there's an assumption among some people at least that one has to meditate on compassion or practice equanimity, etc. but my own experience has been that those things just arise or develop by themselves as a sort of natural effect of meditative practice. Do you agree? Maybe it depends on the individual and the baggage they carry. I've had plenty of baggage...

My experience is much like yours, Ona. Maybe this is something like what Dogen was getting at, when he said meditation IS enlightenment. There's a style of Daoist meditation called Zuowang-- I've seen it translated as 'sitting and forgetting.' At this point, that seems an accurate description of what has happened, is happening.

I've found that the more years of practice I've logged, the more things have come to seem 'optional'-- things like anger, anxiety, hankering, bewilderment-- and the less inclined I've become to 'opt for' these things. What is left is the basic nature, which seems to be calm, happy, understanding, and sympathetic. And capable of moments of surprising clarity, amounting to a small kind of genius in seeing what situations require.

When I first encountered the Ingram interviews and materials (2007?) it was so exciting to see things laid out and mapped so simply and clearly, with clear goals and signposts. From all that, I got the impression that frution, stream entry, and cessations were vitally important and their attainment would bestow me with some kind of immunity to all my "stuff." And, it made sense to me to ignore any dharma instructions that seemed to be about personal pyschological issues in order to be able to just focus on whatever I needed to do to get stream entry, etc.

Anyone else relate to this?

Now, however, I think I get what stream entry and frution and cessations are all about and I'm pretty sure these things have and do happen for me. But, so what? No immunity from my dysfunctional behavior and thinking patterns has been granted or will be granted. Unfortunately for my previous innocent self, there is still work to be done in these areas and there always will be. For me at least so far, there is no new "default state" in which I have become automatically better able to deal with being alive. It is only in actually continuing to practice in this moment that I get the expanded insights and continued relief from suffering my intense vipassana practices have made more likely.

So, now, I crave and enjoy dharma and non-Buddhist related books and talks that seem to address such things as moral behavior, self acceptance, and methods for creating peace right now. And I don't care where such information comes from as long as I feel a connection to the instructions and can see results if I adopt the methods. Norman Fischer and other American Zen teachers' talks are great for this, as are Tara Brach's and others. I listened to Sheri Huber on "Sounds True" yesterday talk about how "there is nothing wrong with you" and it was great. Turns out that there not only isn't anything wrong with me, there is nothing wrong, period. Nice. I know this is true because I've seen it clearly many times but it would be nice to learn how to sort of work that knowledge into my daily life in a more natural way.