Layers of self - peeling back the onion

This is great stuff. I have been very aware of a couple of tendencies in myself that keep getting thrown in my face lately. One is an old habit of liking to get positive attention from teachers/parents. My own main dharma teacher is a genius at evading participation in the dysfunctional side of this dynamic, which allows me to face it alone, be embarrassed by it, laugh at it, feel it, love it, notice it, accept it, release it... I also have a habitual emotional response to neediness in others (not need, but clinging, emotional dependency, etc) which life throws at me now and again so I can see it clearly, and be aware of the nearly instinctive reactions. This one seems to be undergoing renovations by itself at the moment, collapsing in fits and spurts. Fascinating stuff. Life is the ultimate teacher, for sure.

Hello all!

It's been a few weeks since I've had a chance to drop in and see what everyone was talking about on here but this "layers of self" topic insisted itself upon my curiosity and really vibed with what I have been experiencing lately. I've read over some posts here and there in this thread however I did not dedicate the time to read each thoroughly so if these questions have been discussed/answered I apologize for the repetition...

First off I noticed a few posts from jake and ona about some of the dogma involved in the pragmatic movement around what sort of experiences are "good" or "bad" and renunciation and all that. It seems to me that the more we can integrate "non-ideal" circumstances or experiences into our practice the more holistic our practice can be and fewer surprises will bring up turbulence in our daily lives when we're not sitting in a perfect place on a perfect cushion with perfect lighting and so on. Speaking from my own practice experience (which to be fair is limited), Jake and I have discussed this approach of calm abiding of all phenomena and it has given me a huge capacity to face what used to be very challenging situations either emotionally or distracting with an ease that I had never imagined possible.

Second, I have been reading "A Path With Heart" by jack Kornfield from Daniel Ingram's strong and multiple recommendations in MCTB. Overall it is a fantastic book so far but I'm curious about a few things that seem to apply to this topic. 1: How can one be certain that they are facing their deep pain and the healing process is in fact authentic and on the natural track? and 2: How do you all feel about the "Student/Teacher" relationship. Kornfield expresses it as a necessity along with sticking with one style of practice. I am at odds with both of these ideas because I have no formal teacher, just a few friends and forums like this for discussion and support and it seems to me my practice moves along just fine as long as I am putting forth the effort. As for the "one practice" school of thought, I use many methods and practice styles depending on my situation and whims of the heart which seems to arm me for all sorts of challenges. Kornfield describes this as digging many small holes rather than one with great depth which is a logic I can get down with but I'm conflicted here. Any thoughts on these points?

I see that these questions might be slightly off topic but I feel they are directly related to my ability to peel back the layers and heal.

Thanks all!

Most of the qualified teachers I find online or living near me cost $. I'm broke. Any suggestions?

I started out working alone, but when things started getting "interesting" I contacted a teacher and worked with him one-on-one, which was very helpful. That said, my practice was extremely eclectic, including practices from several Buddhist traditions, Christian mysticism, Hinduism, Western Magick, and so on. However, I do see a lot of cases where people jump from one practice to another in a way that is not particularly helpful. It's the difference between designing a garden that includes plants from many regions and just chucking plants in the yard willy-nilly (love that term). If the practices are being chosen and applied in a productive way, they can very much help support each other. If the practices are being tried willy-nilly, or one is jumping from one to the other because this or that doesn't seem to be working, then it's not productive and can be very counterproductive.

Another option to scholarships is teachers with sliding scale fees. It can be quite challenging to work with a "famous" teacher, as they are very busy and constantly doing talks and retreats and traveling. If you find someone less popular, but whose approach you like, it doesn't hurt to ask if they can offer some options or perhaps direct you to a former student or colleague of theirs that does. Heck, you could ask a popular teacher the same question - they may have "graduates" who are just starting out teaching and thus don't charge as much or have sliding fees. If you have barter-able skills, that can be useful, too.

I've never heard the term "hardship scholarship" but I'll see about it.

Yeah I'm not particularly concerned if a teacher is famous or not.
Jake has given me quite a bit of useful advice but is not comfortable with "teacher" status and the responsibility and sometimes BS that goes along with that which I understand completely since I have a few people now in my life that look to me as "the guy that knows" when I just happen to know more than they do at this point in time and am not ready for all those headaches.
It can be a very uncomfortable position.
At any rate I'm not even overly concerned about having a specific teacher unless "those who know" (some of you folks) think it's really the best way to go.
With that said, I'd like to get there sooner than later.
My practice is picking up momentum.
I feel like I'm doing it right.
I feel like I know what I'm suppose to do.
But there is always the concern that I may not be seeing something clearly and frankly, having a grade A, 100% bona fide awakened master in my corner would be pretty Ok with me.
Where do I find one of those for a tight budget (and by tight I mean I'm not comfortable spending money on spirituality.
It seems yucky)

I may be slightly biased as I know several of the regulars on this forum in person, but I can highly recommend the good advice you will get here whenever you need it, free of charge.

Well I suppose that settles that:)

Based on your history here, you seem quite good at formulating questions, engaging with a variety of responses, and actually implementing suggestions that seem promising-- does it need to get any better?

Maybe if some or all of us were certified, in some way... But whether the certification mattered to you, or was merited, would be for you to say, even then. So there we jolly well are!

Chris, aren't you issuing membership cards?

I need one!

Based on your history here, you seem quite good at formulating questions, engaging with a variety of responses, and actually implementing suggestions that seem promising-- does it need to get any better?
Maybe if some or all of us were certified, in some way... But whether the certification mattered to you, or was merited, would be for you to say, even then. So there we jolly well are!


-kategowen

Well then I will rejoice in finding not one but many teachers. Yay:)

Maybe if some or all of us were certified, in some way... But whether the certification mattered to you, or was merited, would be for you to say, even then. So there we jolly well are!


-kategowen

Exactly! Having a professional dharma teacher can be really good. But ultimately whatever advice or feedback we seek it's up to us to interpret, evaluate and apply it.

Also, I think it's important to admit that being a professional dharma teacher doesn't necessarily qualify someone to be a professional bullshit-caller. One would still have to be honest with oneself in order to tell the difference between an actual bullshit-calling and... bullshit ;-P

Plus, if a practitioner has a family, or roommates even, they already have the most accurate bullshit detector! People who live with us 24/7 see all of our reactions and know our habits inside out. They are uniquely positioned to be intimately familiar with our actual limits.

Immediate experience is always going to be the only real teacher that counts. At best, an outer teacher helps us to make and sustain contact with our experience. But friends can do that too, with helpful pointers and moral support during the rough patches. However, I think when going about it the "friend" route rather than the professional teacher route, a plurality of voices is best. That and your own sincerity should provide adequate protection against going round in circles.

Jake has given me quite a bit of useful advice but is not comfortable with "teacher" status and the responsibility and sometimes BS that goes along with that which I understand completely

-duane_eugene_miller

To be precise, I am "not comfortable with 'teacher' status" in the same way as I'm not comfortable with "lawyer" status

(I'm not one.)

But I'm happy to talk about my practice and understanding, with the caveat that I make no claims to complete knowledge or liberation. In fact, aside from "be intimate with present experience", "be honest with yourself about your motivations in practice and daily life", and the general observation that awakening involves losing illusions many of which seem comfortable (although they aren't, really) rather than gaining or attaining special status and or powers, I don't think I've given you much advice! Just repeated those points in lots of ways. Probably the best advice I gave (and you followed) was to reach out to a broader set of voices than just mine if you weren't going to link up with a dedicated professional teacher (of which I recommended a few)

To be honest, I am kind of on the fence about what a "teacher" can or should be. I guess that could be a whole conversation!

I see your point about being a lawer.
That actually helps me greatly in my experience with other's expectations of me.
And my apologies for misinterpreting your reluctance in regards to "teacher status".

I had felt fairly confident that I was getting solid information from the sources I had been in contact with but then I've come across a few writers who seem to insist on the necessity of a formal teacher.
That caused some conflict and doubt about my approach and thought perhaps I was being to relaxed about the whole thing.
The conflict seems to have passed now:)

This is kind of an aside to the theme of the thread, but is apropos of the 'professional teacher' aspect of the discussion-- Ngak'chang Rinpoche's most recent book, Wisdom Eccentrics, is an account of his study with two different Tibetan wild yogis. I've only read it once [it's a great big, juicy book]; but that was enough to give a rollicking picture of how idiosyncratic a 'vajra master' can be. The vajra master is THE most personal of teachers; the one you are willing to allow to mess with your mind-- a proposition that demands long and careful scrutiny! Of the possible master and of yourself, as to what you really are ripe for.

Today, I'm thinking about the conflicting things we want in a teacher: we want someone to 'call us out'-- but in a way that makes sense and seems legitimate to us. A lot of people who read the story of Trungpa's visit to a 'redneck bar' come away thinking that it's a picture of a demented drunk really pushing his luck and endangering his companions. The students who were there-- and terrified!-- say they got a glimpse of the nature of mind.

http://www.chronicleproject.com/stories_19.html is the link to the story, if you want to look into it.

Tibetan Buddhism talks about two kinds of teachers-- the 'dharma friend' who teaches doctrine, precepts, and elementary methods; that relationship is not really personal. [And I think that media, and helpful fellow students, can fill that role pretty well.] The teacher is conveying basic generic stuff to a generic beginner. The factor that counts for the most at this stage is the desire, determination, and patience of the student.

With the vajra master, it is not generic at all; it's intensely personal. And fraught with all kinds of possibilities, good and bad. I know I've said all this before in various places. But I'm turning it over in my mind afresh, today, because I'm wondering if we have the 'institutional support' for the vajra master/disciple relationship to function. I gather it was more the exception than the rule, even in the 'good old days' in Tibet. And, as I think about it, it seems to assume the kind of daily, even hourly, dialogue that proceeds until results are achieved. Our lives don't afford us that kind of access. Not most of us, anyway; and our time is not as open-ended as the 'home-leavers' of old.

Carving out x number of days or weeks or months to devote to 'getting it done' seems like it would shape the process in at least subtle ways, too-- even where it's possible. And it seems like it would distort the estimation of what, exactly, one had accomplished. I have to admit that I suspect that this distortion accounts for some hyperbole around the internet.

Yes! I've come to the conclusion that it's impossible and ill advised to seek out a vajra-master. I mean, you either find yourself undeniably feeling that connection or not. No need to go looking for that kind of trouble

"Carving out x number of days or weeks or months to devote to 'getting it done' seems like it would shape the process in at least subtle ways, too-- even where it's possible. And it seems like it would distort the estimation of what, exactly, one had accomplished. I have to admit that I suspect that this distortion accounts for some hyperbole around the internet." -Kate

I suspect this as well, Kate. (Chris, "Ha!" is right!)

I recently read B. Alan Wallace’s new book Meditations of a Buddhist Skeptic. He quotes William James often, and this particular quote ties in to what you’re saying, here, I think:

“The subjects adhered to become real subjects, the attributes adhered to real attributes, the existence adhered to real existence; whilst the subject disregarded become imaginary subjects, the attributes disregarded erroneous attributes, and the existence disregarded an existence in no man’s land, in the limbo ‘where footless fancies dwell.’ . . . Habitually and practically we do not count these disregarded things as existents at all . . . . They are not even treated as appearances; they are treated as if they were mere waste, equivalent to nothing at all.” (from James, The Principles of Psychology, 2:290-91.)

When “getting it done” is held firmly in mind as a real future event (or, god forbid, a real future “thing”), even through noticing its absence, it thus becomes attainable – though only relatively. What this means outside of its particular view is seemingly indeterminable. And yet, somehow the cloak of naïve realism hides the fact that what is experienced in one’s having “gotten it done” may not, in fact, be some objectively reliable and externally valid reality – outside of the system which conjured it up in the first place.

That’s not to say that there isn’t a reality, or that enlightenment isn’t worth the effort. But it would seem that in its rush to point out and condemn the myriad assumptions of other views, the pragmatic dharma scene at large (though, not every individual involved) – in my opinion – has yet to consider the role of its own biases and assumptions.

@jackson, @chris - get me the damn looney bin membership card already

But I'll say again, I think a lot can be accomplished with knowledgeable friends. The main attraction of a professional teacher type is, if they're worth their salt they have lots of tricks to share that can help dislodge you from stuck spots, which as Chris mentioned, can make for a much more efficient process. As I've mentioned before in private emails, I think you would benefit from private instruction from a dedicated teacher if your goal is stream entry, and there are several who are available and are familiar with MCTB style practices. (Ken Folk, Ron Crouch, both excellent in this regard, not sure of their availability). If there is a part of you that is really excited about insight and attracted to that process then perhaps it would be best to just go for it Again, I think you can do that with help from knowledgeable friends as well. But it's the difference between having some jogging buddies who will occasionally join you and share an encouraging word, one of whom really prefers rowing, another who is more of a skier, and so on VS having a straight-up jogging coach who can help you really get started.