Recognizing your own difficulties

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8 years 10 months ago - 8 years 10 months ago #12966 by Ona Kiser
Interesting statement from Andrew Cohen, admitting some difficulties and taking time off:

andrewcohen.org/blog/apology

eta, my current favorite ritual for addressing inevitable creeping of spiritual pride/arrogance/sense of achievement:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litany_of_humility
Last edit: 8 years 10 months ago by Ona Kiser.

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8 years 10 months ago - 8 years 10 months ago #12967 by Russell
Wow, quite beautiful, actually. (Edit: unless there is some underlying scandal we don't know about yet.)

I’ve understood this simple truth—that we all have egos no matter how enlightened we may be—and even taught it to thousands of people all over the world throughout my career. But when I was being asked to face my own ego by those who were nearest and dearest to me, I resisted.

Last edit: 8 years 10 months ago by Russell.

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8 years 10 months ago #12968 by Andy
Interesting...

I was half-way through the statement/apology when this ad popped up. I broke out in laughter. Bad timing on the part of the ad, I think.

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8 years 10 months ago #12969 by Ona Kiser
One could pretty much guarantee there's some particular event that triggered the recognition. Presuming the apology is heartfelt, and not formulaic, it is a good response no matter what the circumstances, no? Lord knows I fall constantly into similar territory - not one to throw stones when others fall, even if their fall is "worse".

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8 years 10 months ago #12973 by Jake St. Onge
Guys, here is an interesting blog on this very subject. It includes an email from within Cohen's community detailing the 'messaging' that would soon be deployed to 'frame' these changes. Interesting stuff--
whatenlightenment.blogspot.com/

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8 years 10 months ago #12974 by Ona Kiser
if i ever have to hire a pr team in order to manage my reputation and perception, please shoot me

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8 years 10 months ago - 8 years 10 months ago #12975 by Laurel Carrington
@Andy: Same here, plus I got invited to a retreat in Tuscany. I could almost convince myself that I need to go there to get enlightened, that living in Minnesota won't quite cut it.
Last edit: 8 years 10 months ago by Laurel Carrington.

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8 years 10 months ago #12976 by Laurel Carrington
@Ona: The litany is amazing. Wow. I am far from living up to it. As to Mr. Cohen, I have read both American Guru and Enlightenment Blues, and have no doubt that this isn't just overdue, but barely adequate.

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8 years 10 months ago #12977 by duane_eugene_miller

Ona Kiser wrote: if i ever have to hire a pr team in order to manage my reputation and perception, please shoot me


Word.

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8 years 10 months ago #12978 by Ona Kiser
Sort of links to our discussions on the how to teach thread....

For me, there's a vast difference between teaching professionally, doing retreats, being well known, etc etc and coming up with something along the lines of "I have a special (or the only) method for awakening, and you can only get it by being obedient to me". Mostly because it's bullshit. :)

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8 years 10 months ago - 8 years 10 months ago #12984 by Shargrol
Dear Ona,

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Your thoughts:

"Sort of links to our discussions on the how to teach thread....

For me, there's a vast difference between teaching professionally, doing retreats, being well known, etc etc and coming up with something along the lines of "I have a special (or the only) method for awakening, and you can only get it by being obedient to me". Mostly because it's bullshit. "

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Engagement in a number of venue formats provides categorically different teacher-client interaction. Private life optimization sessions, extended intensive immersion workshops, and name-recognition (including Clout score enhancement) has a priori merit, especialy when considered in counterpoint to the heirarchally delivered guidance of uniquely effective pattern reconfiguirng and ahigh-standardization monitoring paradigm. Largely, because the latter is mammal-mediated graminoid digestion."

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Last edit: 8 years 10 months ago by Shargrol.

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8 years 10 months ago #12985 by Ona Kiser

shargrol wrote: Dear Ona,

Messaging Incorporated would love to work with you on this exciting business opportunity. We have attached the following "forum post" as an example of the excellent product we can provide you for your personal Forum Posting Branding needs.

Your thoughts:

"Sort of links to our discussions on the how to teach thread....

For me, there's a vast difference between teaching professionally, doing retreats, being well known, etc etc and coming up with something along the lines of "I have a special (or the only) method for awakening, and you can only get it by being obedient to me". Mostly because it's bullshit. "

Our product:

"Indeed, it harkens to the other memorable conversation on didactic facilitation that entertained us so very much! Ah, such fond memories...

Engagement in a number of venue formats provides categorically different teacher-client interaction. Private life optimization sessions, extended intensive immersion workshops, and name-recognition (including Clout score enhancement) has a priori merit, especialy when considered in counterpoint to the heirarchally delivered guidance of uniquely effective pattern reconfiguirng and ahigh-standardization monitoring paradigm. Largely, because the latter is mammal-mediated graminoid digestion."

We offer pricing packages include both per-post charges or a ongoing account which will ensure your personal Forum Posting needs are met for a low monthly fee.

Act now!


Beyond briliant. Hey.... I have an idea... I think we could make a lot of money.... :evil:

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8 years 10 months ago #12986 by Russell
I think there is an App for this. GuruMaker Pro, or something...

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8 years 10 months ago #12987 by Ona Kiser
GuruMaker Pro could contain a bunch of great features:

-Enlighten-o-babble - great for explaining the mysteries of enlightenment.
-Rule-o-rama - comes up with arbitrary rules for disciples to follow, with suggested punishments for infringement. Free year of legal support if you purchase before July 2013!
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-and as a bonus offer, a six month subscription to Messaging Incorporated's PR services!

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8 years 10 months ago #12991 by Kate Gowen
It's so affirming to see that others cannot resist snark, in the face of straining "not to throw stones." :evil:

Fact is, Cohen has always been Exhibit B in why the "guru idea" transposed to an incoherent commercial society is appallingly bad. Exhibit A (in my eyes) was Adi Da; for others, it would have been Rajneesh, or "Zen Master Rama."

"Recognizing your own difficulties" does not inhabit the same universe as declaring oneself a guru/avatar/enlightened master. I don't think anyone here is in danger of pulling such a stunt-- we're WAY too far below the radar.

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8 years 10 months ago #12992 by every3rdthought
Another in the sadly burgeoning 'guru gone wrong' genre that I found intriguing and very worthwhile was Michael Downing's Shoes Outside The Door , about SF Zen Center and Richard Baker.

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8 years 10 months ago #12993 by Ona Kiser

Kate Gowen wrote: It's so affirming to see that others cannot resist snark, in the face of straining "not to throw stones." :evil:

Fact is, Cohen has always been Exhibit B in why the "guru idea" transposed to an incoherent commercial society is appallingly bad. Exhibit A (in my eyes) was Adi Da; for others, it would have been Rajneesh, or "Zen Master Rama."

"Recognizing your own difficulties" does not inhabit the same universe as declaring oneself a guru/avatar/enlightened master. I don't think anyone here is in danger of pulling such a stunt-- we're WAY too far below the radar.


What if he actually had had a real change of heart? What if it was just the first and triggered a whole storm of gurus becoming humble? People do that sometimes. Apparently not in this case. The guru-babble generator was actually only partly in response to the Cohen story. I'd looked at some stuff about Adi Da the day before after a friend mentioned it in another context, and was astonished at the elaborate language. Reminded me of being in grad school, reading books about perfectly interesting subjects that were obscured by the most awful "look at me, I have a PhD" language. I had a thought for a while to specialize in re-writing books by anthropologists so lay people could appreciate the good bits without having to use a dictionary.

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8 years 10 months ago #12994 by Ona Kiser
Does anyone remember the interview with a teacher named Jeff Foster -who talked about how he had been an arrogant fundamentalist to students in the past, and had had a change of perspective and approach. It struck me as very sincere and shed light on how things can go in those different directions. He gets into his teaching and how it changed, meeting people where they are, a bit in more detail at 1:25 in the interview, but it comes up intermittently earlier too. There's also some good stuff on "the Great Disappointment" around 1:10 I think.

batgap.com/jeff-foster/

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8 years 10 months ago #13356 by Jake St. Onge
An account of a former student meeting with Andrew Cohen a week or two ago:

whatenlightenment.blogspot.com/2013/07/m...ner-with-andrew.html

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8 years 10 months ago #13357 by Kate Gowen
The account is skin-crawlingly vivid and insightful.

At this point, I'm ready to deconstruct "charisma" as a pathology that the ignorant are susceptible to worship. And to see "guru" as a role that makes for good stories-- WAAAAAY down the line-- but that don't offset the damage done. It took the Boomer crop of self-declared gurus to destroy any potential that might have been there, from the traditions. But it's done, the destruction.

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8 years 10 months ago #13377 by Ona Kiser
Charisma is an interesting thing. I see it impact people's relationship to the Church - there are a couple of priests I've come across in person, for instance, who are handsome, energetic, great speakers, good singers; maybe they have books or CDs or a TV show on the Catholic channel... and they get this adulatory following of ladies (mostly) who are really more into the priest than into God. I suppose in these cases the medium helps some people access the message, but it also gets some people more excited about the medium than the message.

There was quite a disruptive period in our own church when the priests got rotated out a while back (there are four or five working there at a time, each with different responsibilities, such as to the school, the parish, the old people's home, etc). One of the ones who left was charming and fun and sociable. I heard people say how "good" he was compared to one of the other priests, who was quiet and bookish, for instance. Their valuing of his teaching and work was heavily dependent on his charisma and physical appearance. The new one is serious and formal. He doesn't grin and flatter anyone. He isn't really charismatic nor handsome. He's also a hell of a lot better at financial and administrative work, and spent several months cleaning up administrative chaos left behind by the charming guy and requiring more consistent and correct performance of everyone else in their jobs. Several people had tantrums and disappeared for a few months to sulk because they didn't want to have to do things a different way. He's a much "better" priest in terms of doing his job. But much less popular.

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8 years 10 months ago #13381 by Chris Marti
Deep inside we are tribal ;)

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1 week 6 days ago #116822 by Chris Marti
Resurrecting another old topic, this time about how easy it is to get lost in ourselves, let ego drive the bus, and get into trouble (even as a guru) thereby.

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1 week 5 days ago #116831 by Shargrol
Jeez, reading up thread.... apparently I had a sense of humor at some point. When did the weight of the world crush me so?  :(

But Russel'ls GuruMaker app is genius. Add the modern functionality of different webcam filters (aura-plus, sparkly eye, passonate cheek blush...) etc etc.   ...and I think it is a million bitcoin idea!

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1 week 5 days ago #116834 by Chris Marti
 ...and I think it is a million bitcoin idea!


So about $1.98  :)

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