Mondo Zen aka Hollow Bones

By the way, I own Transformations of Consciousness and have read it a few times. I like Engler's chapter (the first one, I think) the best. Wilber's are okay. I always thought Eptein's chapter was funny, because it lists the A&P stage as "advanced."

Have you read this interview with Engler from 2000? He gives a small but important update to his position in Transformations.

That's an important point about language! Makes me wonder if there are any studies comparing native Spanish speakers to English speakers around the realization of anatta. Since Spanish still has the implied "I" which is no longer used in English, it may be easier to take on the perspective of not being a self.

I think what you're saying about Dharma and Psychology is that they both have different aims and while they are supportive of each other's aim to a degree, we cannot use psychology dressed up as dharma and expect dharmic results. Is that close?

I hadn't seen that before. Thanks for the link. It makes me like Engler even more. I'm not sure why he agreed to do an interview with Cohen, whose understanding clearly pales in comparrison to Enlger's. How anyone can take Cohen seriously boggles my mind.

So, the update you're referring to is the step away from a linear model. I think that's a good move, and I agree with just about everything Engler said in the interview. Good therapy moves in the direction of greater awareness and freedom from neurotic suffering, as does good spiritual practice. Meditation can take the process further, but it can also be helpful at most other steps of one's over all path.

Yeah, that’s close. I guess I just don’t like it when a few isolated teachings from Buddhism – say, mindfulness – are taken as the whole of Buddhism. Then, some therapists think they can supplement therapy with “Buddhism” or “mindfulness” in this decontextualized form. That doesn’t do justice to either therapy or dharma. The same can happen with Buddhist teachers taking bits and pieces from psychology, and adding it to Buddhism as an enhancement. The piecemeal approach is too haphazard for me. Some theoretical integration is needed to make it function properly, and that requires a deep understanding of both processes. I think folks like Engler, Kornfield, and Welwood, have a good understanding of how these things can work together.

One place that, IMO, does it right is Hakomi. What they call mindfulness is more of an extended state of focus and nonjudgemental awareness so perhaps a little different from the Insight related definitions but close enough. Anyways, they use this state to examine feelings in the body, images, memories, etc. in combination with small experiments like probes (looking at one's reaction to a short positive statement) and other inputs from the therapist. Just as importantly, the therapist mindfully tracks the client (and themselves) to notice any small shifts, unconscious reactions, patterns, etc. They pretty much use mindfulness as a tool to gain clarity and insight into the client's process which seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Jackson Wilshire wrote: I think it's more important to be kind and respectful than to be "nice." Nice has no backbone. Nice can be more like "idiot compassion," (or as you said on Twitter once, "enabling.") There's nothing wrong with being gentle and kind. Just the opposite. "Nice" just seems, I don't know, phony. Like trying to cover up a deeply felt sense of shameful badness with a shiny veneer of rainbows and glitter. It says, "I'll treat you in such a way that you will never become angry with me." That's how I see it, at least.

Ah... Maybe this explains why Mormons are so freaky nice...

Regarding the Integral stuff, agree about the marketing, but also Wilbur's lack of humility is really offensive at times. He really lost me when he claimed to understand a particular author's work better than the author himself.

Psychotherapy is really part of sila, being content based and that kind of endeavor can be useful post awakening, since we are never really done with that. I'm going to have to look up this Hakomi stuff. Have you guys ever heard of the psychoanalytic technique of "trial identification"? It's a sort of non-dual exercise that the analyst engages in where they intentionally identify with the patient to gauge the effect of their interpretations, but get to where they can float between the two perspectives...

Regarding psychology and enlightenment, I really favor a fully secular neuropsych perspective - think this has the most promise for widespread adoption and advances in the techniques for achieving the state.

Jackson Wilshire wrote: I hadn't seen that before. Thanks for the link. It makes me like Engler even more. I'm not sure why he agreed to do an interview with Cohen, whose understanding clearly pales in comparrison to Enlger's. How anyone can take Cohen seriously boggles my mind.

My heart hurt a little when I read this part from Cohen. It pretty much outs his hugely flawed premise for his cult-like teaching approach:

"From my own experience as a spiritual teacher, I have found without exception that if enlightenment is the context and the goal of the spiritual quest, then allowing any room whatsoever for the endless needs, pains, anxieties and frustrations of the narcissistic ego always has only one outcome: giving air, water and food to that which, in the spiritual experience, is recognized to be completely unreal."

That's horrific.


edit: It just seems so obvious that the shadow of a statement like this is "If I acknowledge the fundamental humanity in my students and myself, I'll realize that my identity as "above my students" is an illusion and a contrived mockery of a real spiritual guide."

shargrol wrote: It just seems so obvious that the shadow of a statement like this is "If I acknowledge the fundamental humanity in my students and myself, I'll realize that my identity as "above my students" is an illusion and a contrived mockery of a real spiritual guide."

So true.

Cohen's position is not unlike those who think teaching sex ed to teens will just encourage them to have more sex... like they aren't having tons of sex already!

EDIT: my point being that teen sex is here to stay, so why not at least help sexually active teens (or adults) learn to relate to their sexuality more skillfully, and with fewer harmful effects? The same could be said for "ego."

I'd agree, but I captured my ego, pummeled it to a pulp, and hid it in a closet. I feel so freeeee! Weeeee! Damn that kicking sound from the closet door....

Trial Identification sounds really interesting, David. I'll have to dig up some information.

I think the secular neuropsych perspective is exciting, but I don't know enough about it yet, so I don't have a very informed opinion. So much to learn.