What do you think? - noting

What do you guys think noting would be like in a case where the notes are given to the meditator?

You mean someone else notes for you? How would that work?

I've heard of stuff where people have a fixed kind of list of things they go thru, similar to yoga nidra or goenka where you go thru the body in a dogmatic order. Not that I would recommend it for the long term, but it might be useful as an exercise to bring attention to some areas that are being routinely skipped over.

Ona, yea, but it would probably be automated, like flash cards.

I was thinking it would be like ping pong meditation, but different. Like Tom said there's that thing that can happen while doing ping pong where the sitters arrive at similar places. I was thinking if the sitter was really doing it, eventually the notes would kick stuff up in their own experience and it would become immersive. I was thinking the notes could be accompanied by illustrations and eventually they would layer over one another and make for some real reactions in the sitter which would be the meditation, so maybe to say that its 'noting' the flash cards isn't the best way to say it

I am still confused. That is directly opposite of what noting does (is for). Even in ping-pong noting. Yes, you may feed off the others you are noting with, but they are not noting for you, they are noting what is in their experience and you are noting what is in yours.

Yeah, that sounds like the case later on definitely, when subtler terms of insight are occurring, like real equanimity. This would maybe be for earlier insight, pre A&P

I was thinking it could be a good way to get people into meditation and there would be an aspect of entertainment to it - the notes would come along with illustrations, and if they were good enough, it would be sort of like taking a tour of your experience

the idea came from looking at these. really cool website
unomoralez.com

Femtosecond wrote: Yeah, that sounds like the case later on definitely, when subtler terms of insight are occurring, like real equanimity. This would maybe be for earlier insight, pre A&P

No, I still don't think so. Even worse for beginners actually. Noting is about bringing you closer to seeing your experience and objectifying it. I think forcing objects in there to note into the experience is missing the point. It just becomes all stories around the object that was presented instead of stories around the objects that present themselves.

Meditating on a (material) object is not noting - it can be a kind of concentration practice, like where you stare at a kasina or candle flame. But meditating isn't the same as "describing a picture" for instance. And de-emphasizing visual cues (by closing ones eyes) is usually necessary for beginners, otherwise they are too distracted. One wants to encourage an "inner" looking in the beginning in particular, by paying attention to things like body sensations, breathing or other simple phenomena. Even "watching thoughts" is usually challenging for beginners, as they spend more time thinking about stuff than actually observing or noting.

In my experience, it has been more getting into a sort of trance that brings me close to the emotional pattern and sensation thats underlying the experience, which has just been a large torrent of one particular sensation that colors all the others. This is what I'm meaning by beginners. Maybe the notes would be imputed, but it is still part of everyones life, like situation thought or futurizing thought.

The notes probably wouldn't beckon an immediate, specific response to themselves, but over time maybe if doing it right, 15 minutes, the meditator would be immersed in their own mind state as it relates to the inputs

The trance effect is a concentration state. Concentration states are not a bad thing. They help many people learn to meditate.

(And they aren't just sometimes beneficial to total beginners, but even to intermediate level folks who aren't getting a lot of focus or absorbtion or have trouble paying attention. They are also generally calming, making one feel nice.)

I still don't know if it would work, though. It would entail a lot of mindfulness to work, and would be about awareness towards the response the meditator has from the note.

Anyway, up here at the apple store sending my computer away for maintenance. It'll be out until Mon or Tues.

Thinking I'm going to throw in a mini retreat for that time

Good luck with the retreat!

Femtosecond wrote: What do you guys think noting would be like in a case where the notes are given to the meditator?

Hmm this is interesting....Maybe you could call it anti-noting, a cure for all your enlightenment aliments. A way to impose and encourage control over perceived reality to switch from nondual back to a dual confusion.

Wouldn't it still be a meditation?

The mind is naturally clingy and aversive, especially towards its own experience. 'Desire for deliverance', ect. That fat A&P experience, ect. Even more mundane, conventional emotions.

By exposing the meditator to the fact that those things are real, and the ways in which the mind clings/inclines to and pushes away from them, maybe it would trigger a response in the meditator that is meditative.

Everything would be included in the list of notes, so there would be a natural balancing effect enough in line with whats actually being experienced to not be plainly disorienting from the standpoint of meditation.

I don't follow. It would be a random list of things that *could* be experienced, but the whole point of noting is to promote awareness of what's happening *now*, and now, and now, and now. Not some other time, not hypothetically. Now.

Are you thinking of a guided meditation, where one is instructed to pay attention to particular kinds of experiences? If so, something more narrative and open ended would work much better. How does the pressure of your butt against the chair feel? What's going on in the stomach? Notice the expansion of the chest as you inhale.

Yeah, a more narrative type guided meditation would be an important component to ground the experience of mindfulness in the present.

Reading this thread over, it seems like what Eric said might be what I was really thinking about.

Suppose there are deeper experiences that are hard to apprehend just by looking.

Maybe its because they've been forgotten, or maybe because whatever the waking state is is so habituated its easy to overlook. Maybe, a half dozen of one and six of the other

So, supposing someone is doing this meditation, there could be a foundation of more conventional narrative to ground them in there experience, but then there would be a note that they may not be experiencing right then, but that they would have associations with, and this would dredge up an experience for observation.

Say, there is the foundational notes coming up, like "foot" or "torso" or "hand", and the foundation of the sit is being built, then another one comes up like say "joy". Well, this would introduce another element into the sit of experiencing whatever the sitters relation is to that emotion.

Maybe it has been absent for a long while, and it would appeal the sit to aspects of their emotionality that are usually for whatever reason not activated.

Or maybe its close to their waking state right then.

In any of these cases, the sitter may resonate with the illustrative aspect of the notes, which would just be a neat embellishment on sitting practice. If it could be done.

The thought was kind of inspired by some ping pong noting sessions

Did you discover that when doing ping-pong noting you sometimes started to feel/sense/experience the same thing the other person had noted sometime earlier? Is that the idea you are going for? That if the leader of the guided meditation says "foot...joy" then the person listening will have their attention go to their foot, and then might feel joy?

Does this relate to those pictures, or completely different thing?

The pictures would be doing the guiding. For hand, there'd be some artwork of a hand. (hmm but then it might not work b/c to appreciate it the viewer may have to linger with it, and that'd disrupt the pace of the notes)

No, they'd feel how they relate to the sensation of joy. Maybe it'd be wanting, maybe it'd be remembrance, maybe it'd be vulnerability, maybe even self loathing. The idea is it would bring about a more rounded experience of what is actually being experienced for the viewer

Observation by contrast, meditation by induction

Just one example for the moment, it could possibly be like seeing a mirage while in a desert. Mirage? -> water -> quenching -> relaxation; hence desire, wanting, craving, ect.

Are you thinking of an artificial ping-pong noting partner? That could work. They say a random word, you reply with what YOU are experiencing. They say another word. You could just program it to say a word from a list of typical sensations/phenomena every second or something.

Giving people directed noting doesn't really work, I don't think, because they really need to pay attention to their own reactions. One person might see water and think "thirst" and another think "terror" (because they almost drowned once) and another think "pretty" or "loud" or any kind of thing. And it's important to encourage that noticing of ones own mental activity and responses as thoroughly as possible.

Guided meditations can do stuff like "Pay attention to your feet. Notice if there is any tension. Notice how the skin feels." and so on. But they don't tell you how those things should/might feel. They just tell you to go look for yourself.

I've been thinking about how to start someone with a noting practice by kinda bashing the 5 senses into them to start. Then get more subtle and then let them go onto the normal noting. I was thinking about a flashy flashlight for seeing, a drum/rattle/bell for sound, a feather for touch, some scented oils for smell and a couple food items.
I find it useful in the sauna to focus on the drips of sweat....they tickle and are so predominate that they force me into vipasanna very easily and quickly. I Was thinking there could be a way to do this outside the sauna and with more senses.
~D

Although Bikram Hot Yoga is pretty popular... maybe sauna vipassana is just the thing.

Sweat lodge....I think they call it.
When I was stuck in review for years I would sauna almost everyday at the gym. The heat as focus would pull me right to cessation almost every time. Then I would go work out. I still do the sauna but it is more metta concentration then heat then sweat drips to start insite then the outside sit noting/noticing. I've gotten some good mileage out of it so far.
~D