What do you guys know about neurofeedback?
- Femtosecond
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11 years 5 months ago #94846
by Femtosecond
What do you guys know about neurofeedback? was created by Femtosecond
I just saw this little website
www.40yearsofzen.com
that purports to put you in a state that would otherwise take 40 years of zen meditation to achieve through neurofeedback.
What do you guys think/know about that? It doesn't seem like it's very aware of meditation insofar as dramatic changes of perception, but it does say they basically learned how to get out of their own way. It sounds like its talking about calm instead of serious insights...... and costs 15 thousand dollars.
But I thought I'd make a post here. I remember Chris saying some things about accepting the possibility technology could make awakening possible.
What do you guys think/know about that? It doesn't seem like it's very aware of meditation insofar as dramatic changes of perception, but it does say they basically learned how to get out of their own way. It sounds like its talking about calm instead of serious insights...... and costs 15 thousand dollars.
But I thought I'd make a post here. I remember Chris saying some things about accepting the possibility technology could make awakening possible.
11 years 5 months ago #94847
by Andy
Replied by Andy on topic What do you guys know about neurofeedback?
In regards to technologies for awakening, Vincent Horn interviewed
Judson Brewer
about his research on providing meditators live feedback via an FMRI machine. Check out the
interview here
.
The whole thing is a fascinating listen or read, but if you want to find the specific passages about changing your brain states in real-time, search for the words 'red' or 'blue' in the article.
The whole thing is a fascinating listen or read, but if you want to find the specific passages about changing your brain states in real-time, search for the words 'red' or 'blue' in the article.
11 years 5 months ago #94848
by Tom Otvos
-- tomo
Replied by Tom Otvos on topic What do you guys know about neurofeedback?
From personal experience, what I *know* about neurofeedback is nothing. What I think, however, is that in very limited cases, this can help to boost concentration, but otherwise does nothing for "awakening". Since we know nothing about what awakening actually is, biologically, it will be a long time (if ever) that a device can induce it. But as with any other feedback system (neuro, mechanical, electrical) it presumes that there is some measure you are trying to control or optimize. So one has to ask: what is being fed back? What "measure" is being optimized because, to quote Tarin Greco, "you get what you optimize for"? There is still very little that can be measured in the brain, so the feedback will be of limited use.
To say that it replaces 40 years of Zen meditation is, I hope you'll agree, ridiculous.
To say that it replaces 40 years of Zen meditation is, I hope you'll agree, ridiculous.
-- tomo
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11 years 5 months ago #94849
by Femtosecond
Replied by Femtosecond on topic What do you guys know about neurofeedback?
Yeah, it sounded a little ludicrous, informercialish
11 years 5 months ago #94850
by Andy
Replied by Andy on topic What do you guys know about neurofeedback?
Also, you might want to check out Jeff Warren's book "Head Trip". Chapter five details his experiences in trying to use EEG neurofeedback to help produce SMR spindles on demand.
The whole book is a great read. We've talked about it a bit here on AW. Search for "Head Trip".
From JeffWarren.org.
The sensory-motor rhythm (SMR) gets its name from a very specific spindle
of electrical activity over the sensory-motor cortex, where it is associated with
a reduction in sensory input and motor output. SMR states appear in moments
of Zen-like calm alertness: when you throw a tennis ball in the air and wait for its
descent, or in that brief period of thought-collecting stillness before playing a musical
instrument. Over the course of 40 sessions experimenting with neurofeedback, I tried
so hard to attain my own SMR state that I nearly drove myself insane with decidedly
non-Zen scheming and obtuseness. For all its fickleness, or perhaps because of it, SMR is
a much-cherished state. Time slows down and the moment seems to breathe. There is a
crisp, sharply defined quality to both internal thoughts and external stimuli. The state can
be learned, expanded, sustained. Other traditions have other names for it: Buddhists call it
“mindfulness”. TRAVEL NOTES: relatively accessible; stay several seconds to much longer; feels
calm, alert, super-clear senses; EEG – low beta (12 to 15 Hz).
The whole book is a great read. We've talked about it a bit here on AW. Search for "Head Trip".
From JeffWarren.org.
The sensory-motor rhythm (SMR) gets its name from a very specific spindle
of electrical activity over the sensory-motor cortex, where it is associated with
a reduction in sensory input and motor output. SMR states appear in moments
of Zen-like calm alertness: when you throw a tennis ball in the air and wait for its
descent, or in that brief period of thought-collecting stillness before playing a musical
instrument. Over the course of 40 sessions experimenting with neurofeedback, I tried
so hard to attain my own SMR state that I nearly drove myself insane with decidedly
non-Zen scheming and obtuseness. For all its fickleness, or perhaps because of it, SMR is
a much-cherished state. Time slows down and the moment seems to breathe. There is a
crisp, sharply defined quality to both internal thoughts and external stimuli. The state can
be learned, expanded, sustained. Other traditions have other names for it: Buddhists call it
“mindfulness”. TRAVEL NOTES: relatively accessible; stay several seconds to much longer; feels
calm, alert, super-clear senses; EEG – low beta (12 to 15 Hz).
11 years 5 months ago - 11 years 5 months ago #94851
by Andy
Great point, Tom. We can spend a lifetime examining our experiences looking for awakening, really optimizing our clarity and concentration, really looking at the details.
Replied by Andy on topic What do you guys know about neurofeedback?
Tom Otvos wrote: What I think, however, is that in very limited cases, this can help to boost concentration, but otherwise does nothing for "awakening".
Great point, Tom. We can spend a lifetime examining our experiences looking for awakening, really optimizing our clarity and concentration, really looking at the details.
Last edit: 11 years 5 months ago by Andy.
11 years 5 months ago #94852
by Antero
I had a chance to try out Judson's live feedback FMRI a couple of years ago. It was an interesting experience for sure and I can see potential for it as a teaching tool, but IMO the awakening technology is still taking baby steps.
Replied by Antero on topic What do you guys know about neurofeedback?
andy wrote: In regards to technologies for awakening, Vincent Horn interviewed Judson Brewer about his research on providing meditators live feedback via an FMRI machine. Check out the interview here .
The whole thing is a fascinating listen or read, but if you want to find the specific passages about changing your brain states in real-time, search for the words 'red' or 'blue' in the article.
I had a chance to try out Judson's live feedback FMRI a couple of years ago. It was an interesting experience for sure and I can see potential for it as a teaching tool, but IMO the awakening technology is still taking baby steps.
11 years 5 months ago #94857
by Eric
Replied by Eric on topic What do you guys know about neurofeedback?
Very infomercialish, yes.
But I have done that training, or at least EEG stuff that was something very similar. Lots of it, several hundred hours. I do think it helped me to relax and pay attention better, and I did get an A&P experience out of it. But all of that could also have been easily done for free with a good mindfulness practice, say Mahasi.
Brewer's fMRI feedback is very interesting, specifically targeted deep in the brain to the PCC, that would be very cool, surface EEG can't touch that.
But I have done that training, or at least EEG stuff that was something very similar. Lots of it, several hundred hours. I do think it helped me to relax and pay attention better, and I did get an A&P experience out of it. But all of that could also have been easily done for free with a good mindfulness practice, say Mahasi.
Brewer's fMRI feedback is very interesting, specifically targeted deep in the brain to the PCC, that would be very cool, surface EEG can't touch that.