Critique of Radiant Mind/Peter Fenner?

"(Am I remembering correctly that Aroter folks have a saying "there are no views, only methods"? That expression was going through my head as I typed the above.)"

I've never heard that particular statement; I HAVE heard, "Buddhism is about method, not 'truth.'" And I have heard that there is the method called "practice of View, or 'pure vision'"-- a relatively advanced practice that would require having really integrated the View, rather than having a verbal-intellectual familiarity with it.

That's what I was remembering "no truths, only method" or something like that. Thanks Kate!

shargrol wrote: Clearer?

Is it?

Much appreciated Chris. Heartfelt.

edit: (Yes, I'm recalling an old conversation between us, about a particular time in your practice, which is what I think you are referring to.)

Yeah, my bloodhound scent smelled the weight of that. Gonna keep following the trail

Chris Marti wrote:

... a relatively advanced practice that would require having really integrated the View, rather than having a verbal-intellectual familiarity with it.

Another pointing -- note the last clause of what Kate has posted.

Sorry. I'll shut the f*ck up now.

Shut the f*ck up?! I think you're holding back on us...

Yup, you're holding back! You can even walk up walls! (I have no idea why those uploaded like that!)

Is there a distinction here between analysing a teaching method, and analysing a state? The first is a worthwhile intellectual exercise, the second necessarily not, but they're not in conflict? For what it's worth, from your description Shargrol (I haven't looked for myself, how unBuddhist of me ) the Fenner sounds like fairly standard neo-Advaita-style teachings (Gangaji etc) which I tend to think are true but not useful (indeed counterproductive) at early and various stages, which is an intellectual judgement

Kate Gowen wrote: "I HAVE heard, "Buddhism is about method, not 'truth.'" And I have heard that there is the method called "practice of View, or 'pure vision'"-- a relatively advanced practice that would require having really integrated the View, rather than having a verbal-intellectual familiarity with it.

I fully agree with Kate. "The View is the meditation" is a method of no method. Once there is a good familiarity with the unconditioned, taking the view that you are already there and making it immovable is a way to maintain the perspective that by definition cannot be found and cannot be maintained.

My 2 cents: 1 cent-- I always understood that the "practice of View" is found, not imposed; a discovery, not a relentless intention.

2nd cent-- I think the reason all the glib analytical/intellectual/verbal formulations are so annoying (at some stages of practice) is that they are a sort of "near enemy," or imitation, of realization. All the conceptual pieces are in place, but that galvanic recognition of the heart doesn't animate them. In a way, "knowing" all the non-duality rap is a big obstruction. The intuition "so near, and yet so far" is maddening to an honest person; that others may demand no more... is sometimes sad, sometimes really annoying.

Kate Gowen wrote: My 2 cents: 1 cent-- I always understood that the "practice of View" is found, not imposed; a discovery, not a relentless intention.

Kate, when you say this practice is found or discovered, does that include as the result of pointing out (as in pointing out instructions)?

Chris Marti wrote: ...this frustration had to build to a huge crescendo, be pondered and chewed on like a dog would chew a rag soaked in beef stew.

Great image! I think this is where the "poking with pointy sticks" by colleagues or teachers is so helpful sometimes. It helps keep you from finding a comfortable spot, and helps keep the frustration going. Somehow that seems necessary (or at least inevitable). If it's not frustrating, it's often because you've found a comfy (hiding) spot to rest in. So it has seemed in my own experience, anyway.

Eran wrote:

Kate Gowen wrote: My 2 cents: 1 cent-- I always understood that the "practice of View" is found, not imposed; a discovery, not a relentless intention.

Kate, when you say this practice is found or discovered, does that include as the result of pointing out (as in pointing out instructions)?

I think "pointing-out instructions" are a very delicate matter, and require something very like the traditional master-student level of intimate knowledge over time. I don't think anything more generic-- finding them in a book, or being given them as part of a class of students-- is likely to work, short of a miracle of coincidence. It's specific to the student, the circumstances, the master's skill, and the confidence and trust between master and student.

Ona Kiser wrote:

Chris Marti wrote: I think this is where the "poking with pointy sticks" by colleagues or teachers is so helpful sometimes. It helps keep you from finding a comfortable spot, and helps keep the frustration going. Somehow that seems necessary (or at least inevitable). If it's not frustrating, it's often because you've found a comfy (hiding) spot to rest in. So it has seemed in my own experience, anyway.

I'm appreciating all the comments. Thanks everyone.

Great image! I think this is where the "poking with pointy sticks" by colleagues or teachers is so helpful sometimes. It helps keep you from finding a comfortable spot, and helps keep the frustration going. Somehow that seems necessary (or at least inevitable). If it's not frustrating, it's often because you've found a comfy (hiding) spot to rest in. So it has seemed in my own experience, anyway.

Thanks. I don't think I've quite heard things explained that way before. Frustration is usually the point where I go on the internet and find a new technique to practice. Now I can see how that might not be helpful.