Responses to The Progess of Insight (Part Four)

Hi mindful1983 & Khara,
When mixing different meditation techniques from different traditions, there is always the potential for getting mixed results or no positive results at all.

Imagine each tradition as a distinct geometric line. A geometric line consists of a series of points -- an infinite series, in fact. Only a line segment, which is a portion of a geometric line, has a beginning point and an end point.

Progressive, step-by-step meditative traditions are like line segments arranged end-to-end. Each practice stage is like one line segment. After you complete one, you go on to the next. And so on.

Direct meditative traditions (sometimes called "sudden" although they're not actually that) are like two-step practices. First step is developing basic concentration, which we can compare to a single line segment being traversed or completed. Second step is to...realize the entire infinite line.

The progressive path has many, definite, well-described levels of attainment. You always know (or can know) where you are. And each level or stage delivers something (which is often something nice but sometimes not-so-nice). In any case, the landscape is clear.

The direct path begins in clarity and then delves straight into the Mystery. Having a highly advanced teacher on that path is an enormous asset. Having someone who has actually realized Awakening is most highly recommended. Short of that, at least having someone with long years of practice can sometimes -- many times -- be sufficient. (And, yes, you can potentially Awaken even if your teacher has not.)

Analogies only take us so far, so please don't stretch mine to the breaking point The lesson here is that one ought to be very cautious when mixing techniques different meditative traditions.

Thank you Gozen, your feedback is helpful... and I guess I learned the hard way from my little experimentation with mixing methods.
What I discovered is that after progressing through jhanas (concentration), I'm only able to track through portions of the nanas (insight), then I get lost (either getting stuck on the "thingy-ness" or simply forgetting what I'm even doing). Areas that I would normally progress through with ease in my regular method, were particularly contrived and felt forced. Yesterday, I tried to just let it go and switch to Zuowang practice, but it was like I couldn't "remember" how to do it.

Now I'm telling myself - This too is Not Two, not two, not two... no expectations... not two...

So...if I understand what you are saying, Gozen -- my current practice of doing kasina meditation until I achieve a certain level of concentration/tranquility and then switching technique to vipassana may not be such a good idea?

(BTW: I am pre-stream entry - my best guess is somewhere between the Dark Night dhuka nanas and Equanimity in the Theravada model).

n8sense, doing pretty much what you're doing now got me through first path pretty quickly as I look back on it. I'd have to say you're doing fine. I think what Gozen is saying is it's best not to mix together, at the same time, the very different practices of the various traditions, especially the non-dual (direct path) methods of Zen or Vajrayana with Thervada concentration and vipassana. And I think that makes sense. I droped Zen (sorry, Gozen) years ago in favor of Theravada concentration and vipassana practices - mainly because I needed the more overt, easy-for-dummies-like-me-to-get instructions. Daniel Ingram's MCTB became my "bible."

Being post stream entry, and speaking from experience: For stream entry: I felt I needed a very direct approach and practiced (Mahassi) based Vipassana primarily, with a little direct inquiry during the dark night states. When eating, I did not note, I simply ate, like in zen. I was very careful to live in balance with positive self care.

Khara, I encourage you to look more closely at your emotional states as you progress, and simplify your practice in some way.

Thank you for your practice.

"So...if I understand what you are saying, Gozen -- my current practice of doing kasina meditation until I achieve a certain level of concentration/tranquility and then switching technique to vipassana may not be such a good idea?

(BTW: I am pre-stream entry - my best guess is somewhere between the Dark Night dhuka nanas and Equanimity in the Theravada model)."

Hi n8sense,
I'm not an expert in the Theravada approach, to be sure. But it seems to me that your approach is OK if the "certain level of concentration" you achieve is what they call "access concentration." From that point of stable attention, you ought to be able to switch to vipassana.

"
n8sense, doing pretty much what you're doing now got me through first path pretty quickly as I look back on it. I'd have to say you're doing fine. I think what Gozen is saying is it's best not to mix together, at the same time, the very different practices of the various traditions, especially the non-dual (direct path) methods of Zen or Vajrayana with Thervada concentration and vipassana. And I think that makes sense. I droped Zen (sorry, Gozen) years ago in favor of Theravada concentration and vipassana practices - mainly because I needed the more overt, easy-for-dummies-like-me-to-get instructions. Daniel Ingram's MCTB became my "bible."

"

Hi cmarti,
Yes, you got me right.

As to your dropping of Zen practice: Please don't think you need to apologize to me or anyone else. That would be a very un-Zen thing to do

Seriously, only you can really know what's best for you. It may take a while (maybe a very long while) for some people to see (or allow themselves to acknowledge) that a particular path of practice is really not working for them. Better to face the facts and find what works, than to plow an infertile field forever.

"Khara, I encourage you to look more closely at your emotional states as you progress, and simplify your practice in some way."

Hi ccasey,
Perhaps what I said was out of context and came across diff than how it was meant. Let me see if I can explain better.
I had very good progress when I incorporated the samatha practice... it stabilized my Zuowang practice with improved concentration.

Zuowang is similar to Zazen except that the breath isn't focused upon. However, I use breath as a focus initially, then when concentration is set, I let go of the breath as focus and progress into deeper states. This practice lead to some nice stuff that seemed to match with the Vipassana nanas up to the 15th Nana (refer to page 1 this thread, discussion between Kenneth and I).

Then, I read other info whereby Kenneth described cycling through the jhanas/nanas forward and back... so I wanted to experiment with this practice - which meant switching my practice method to strictly Vipassana (up to that point I was merely noticing the parallels of my Zuowang practice and matching them to the described nanas).

What I really like about the progressive Vipassana practice is how it's an explicit technique with definite landmarks (in contrast to the direct path tradition that I'm used to doing).
However, it became problematic when I attended to each stage of progression - I found that I was basically thinking too much and felt like I was trying to "make something happen" rather than "Being, non-being." And, "Not Two." (These are typical descriptors for the method that I usually do). I think Gozen described the diff between progressive path and direct path much better than what I'm doing, so I'll refer you to what he said.

No worries. It's cool that I learned some things from this experiment... it's like I took an investigative detour.

Thanks to all for responding to my questions. Gozen, I agree wholeheartedly that we each have to find what works best for us at any given point. What I'm doing presently feels right, but there is always the possibility of self-delusion and, as you say, I don't want to waste time plowing an infertile field.

That point is made all the more clear this morning - I spent most of my sit in the 9th ñana - Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance. I'm at a point now where I just want to be done with it....

I'm trying to let go and just be with whatever is going on , but I get frustrated. It feels like everything is all jammed up somewhere between the heart and throat chakras to put it into physical terms. I am experiencing a little bit of buzzing in the brow chakra area from time-to-time, so maybe things are starting to loosen up a bit...

"Without naming IT, we can describe some of ITs aspects:
- IT is unconditioned: IT exists of ITself without being dependent.
- IT is foundational: all things depend on IT for their own existence, which is derivative or dependent on IT.
- IT is not causal: IT did not create things, but all things arose from IT by a mysterious process of emanation or wilfull descent.
- IT is unthreatened: nothing could harm IT
- IT is complete: nothing could help IT
- IT is joy: what Kenneth calls the Happiness with no opposite
- IT is non-separate: you are already IT but you just haven't Realized IT yet!

So IT is WHAT or WHO is beyond the Witness. (And I'd advise you to think WHO rather than WHAT because this Great One is Love beyond all boundaries.) -Gozen"

Thanks, Gozen, for the depth and clarity of your insights and for sharing them so eloquently with us.

Metta,

Kenneth