What's Your End Game? Do You Have One?

All the angst occurring over at the DhO has caused me to think about the importance of knowing what we're getting into and why we're getting into it when we engage actively in a spiritual practice. This is not unrelated to the issues being raised "over there." I think it's important to be explicit about the end game we're after. If we don't do that, even at a rudimentary level, we leave ourselves open to becoming confused or, worse, manipulated.

Am I onto something or is it too difficult to do when we know so little going into these practices?

How about exploring our subjective experience like scientists with no aim but to know more about ourselves?

"Life is a rollercoaster you just gotta ride it" comes to mind.

What do we really choose?

Amr, I like your answer. It's a noble experiment, isn't it? I think your answer is a vey worthy "why."

Hi, Gary. I agree about the roller coaster life is but I also think a spiritual practice is a way to learn how to better enjoy the ride.

Hi Chris,

My response probably says more about me than anything else. Your question and statement at an everyday level makes sense and is probably sound advice.

But if we play a little and consider the phrase "we leave ourselves open to becoming confused or, worse, manipulated", you might say we are not confused because we sided with part of reality and we think we are not being manipulated because we believe we make choices.

Do we make choices?

At an everyday level or in "story mode" we think we make choices.
When confronted (notice we are confronted we do not choose) with a so called decision or choice there is only ever a stimulus / response mechanism. The body / mind is a machine.

Gary, what do you mean by saying "the mind mind is a machine?" Can you elaborate?

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Gary, what do you mean by saying "the mind mind is a machine?" Can you elaborate?


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It was an anology to make a point we don't make choices in the conventional sense. A machine only operates with cause and effect, the body/mind is the same stimulus generates response nothing more. It is all just movement and intermingling, that which is called a choice is part of the same stuff as everything else. Choices are just a hardwired or learned response and there is no one in control.

I agree with Gary here. This is something I figured out conceptually as a teenager and now as my buddhist practice and my understanding of cause and effect deepen seems more and more obvious.

If you accept the assumption that the relative universe operates according to laws and principles and we as humans are subject to those laws and principles then it follows that if there was a being that has complete understanding of said laws, and has complete knowledge of the causes and conditions shaping your psyche and current condition, then that being should be able to predict what decision you would make in any circumstance. If this is true, than ultimately free will is an illusion and destiny is implied. However for the purpose of living as a human in a relative world with incomplete knowledge, free will is a very useful illusion to subscribe to in order to avoid getting caught in nihilism and despair.

Now, my response to the OT...

I pursue the this path because I must. It's quite clear I've had a bad case of insight disease long before I started formally practicing buddhism. I have general goals about what I would like to attain including arahatship as defined by Daniel/Kenneth, mastery of the known Jhana/Strata of mind and most of all to get cured of insight disease. A year or so ago, I would have given more specific answers in terms of expectations around the end game. However, as I progress further I'm uncovering beliefs about what I expect lies at the end suspect and so I'm a bit more reluctant to invest in expectation. However I do sense there is a freedom and a wholeness and I've tasted both to a certain degree. I suppose my end goal is to realize that sense of freedom and wholeness completely and then spend the rest of my life understanding and embodying that realization.

-Lee

No.
I'm just convinced that it is possible to have more insight and less suffering. And I can't see anything more worthwhile to work on in my life until I die than to get as much insight and to eliminate as much suffering as I possibly can.

I imagine that the spiritual path is a little like having children - before you get into it, there's really no good way to prepare yourself. You don't know how it's going to change things for you, because you will change in the process, and the future you may have different considerations than your present self.

That being said, with having a new baby, there are *some* things you can do, like buy baby clothes, set up daycare, etc. So I think it makes sense to think things over, and at least understand your present motivations for what you are doing and what you hope to get from it.

Personally I don't see an end to my interest in esoteric stuff, and I don't want it to end. To be honest, I already feel whole and complete... but having insight into the nature of experience greatly interests me

"Choices are just a hardwired or learned response and there is no one in control."

While it's clear to me there's no permanent self I'm not sure that means there's no choice. I'm not sure we human beings really are just like machines. Does choice require a chooser? Hmmm....

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"Choices are just a hardwired or learned response and there is no one in control."

While it's clear to me there's no permanent self I'm not sure that means there's no choice. I'm not sure we human beings really are just like machines. Does choice require a chooser? Hmmm....

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Hi Chris,

I think it is important to keep the context in which I have made the statement. Gozen once said to me "some smart guy might be able to convince you that you do not exist". In summary these paradox's should always apply to a process of mind and be kept in that context.

The process of mind or context here is in asking the question about an end game. If we answer the question about the end game it is good to be aware of from where the question arose, and therefore perhaps the folly in the answer.

I started to practice because I wanted to relieve myself of pain. After a few years I was practicing to learn about myself. It became discovery and exploration. Then it was because I wanted to wake up, and after that it was because I wanted to be awake right now, every second. I'll probably have a new reason to practice tomorrow, next week, next year.

So... back to the original premise here -- if we don't have at least some minimally clear end game in mind as we practice is it easy to get pulled off into things, philosophies, processes, practices, that aren't healthy? Interpret "healthy" in any way you feel is appropriate...

Haquan, to you in particular, and to Kenneth for sure, and anyone: is it possible that some practices that are harmful? How do we know they're harmful, if such a thing exists? Is this the importance of having a teacher? Of understanding the importance of morality in our practice?

And yes, this is coming from my recent "discussions" with some folks in the Actual Freedom movement.

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Haquan, to you in particular, and to Kenneth for sure, and anyone: is it possible that some practices that are harmful? How do we know they're harmful, if such a thing exists? Is this the importance of having a teacher? Of understanding the importance of morality in our practice?

And yes, this is coming from my recent "discussions" with some folks in the Actual Freedom movement.

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Ha! Coming from a tradition known for it's psychic risk taking, you might regret asking me!

It's a fascinating question though, and I've been putting on my magico-technical spectacles to look at what we're doing, and I have come up with a few things.

First of all, I really think most of you guys don't take *enough* risks. I don't really hear about any of you really pushing themselves, or doing things that you're uncomfortable with. I think part of the point of engaging in esoteric practices is to break through your own boundaries and limitations. I haven't done this in a few years but not long ago, if there was a particular magickal project that was important to me, it would be nothing for me to fast for 8 days, meditate 4 hours a day until the final day, and culminate in a ritual involving self-flagellation, sexual stimulation, and strobe lights. It's good to provide a "shock to the system" occasionally, as Gurdjieff believed - and it's good to take breaks every now and then too. I'd like to hear more people talk about doing Chod, or anathema work. Furthermore, if there is a slight element of fear, that tends to energize the intent or practice.

My old mentor, Joshua Wetzel, wrote a passage in his book "The Paradigmal Pirate" that goes something like this: "If you ever come across a ritual that reads "Do not perform this ritual - at the risk of your soul, permanent insanity, or permanent possession" Do THAT ONE!!!"

All that being said, there are some inherent risks with any esoteric practice, though they aren't great risks. Some people have an inherent diathesis for psychosis - if that runs in your family or you have a history of mental illness, you may consider focusing more on Vipassana than concentration techniques. I have nothing to add to the risks and precautions Daniel mentions in MCTB - those are quite well founded. Obviously one does not want to overdo anything, and if one's physical health becomes jeopardized one should knock off whatever one is doing.

One can easily see a meditational practice as an exercise in devotional magick with the intent of "enlightenment." What I can say, apart from the above, is that the main danger of performing any kind of magick is not related to the actual techniques or practices employed - but are more related to the intent of the practice - there are three main dangers. The first danger is having an inappropriate intent . The second danger is having internal ambivalence manifest. The third danger is unintended consequences. I'll take these one at a time.

The first danger happens when one does not consider whether the intended outcome really meets one's needs. A good example of this might be the magician who desires a harmonious relationship with his mate, and he believes that the source of their problems is financial. He does magick for money, and is sucessful but his mate leaves him. He should have done magick for harmony in his relationship in the first place. This is the main error that I believe the AF people are making. They want liberation - they've reasoned that if they were free from emotions they would be liberated. So their intent is to remove their emotions. They may achieve that - but at what cost? They should have an open-ended intent for liberation and let it manifest however it does.

In general, most of us are ok on this front Cont

Our intent is vague - but could generally be translated in terms of seeking insight and wisdom, or "the happiness which is free from conditions" - I really don't see how these could go wrong. One of my friends once queried. "If you were given three wishes, what would be the best possible first wish?" The answer was "The wisdom to know what to wish for with the other two wishes." There are a few technical issues with not really understanding what we are asking for by asking for "enlightenment" - but nothing dangerous.

The second danger may come about when we are confused about what we really want. The way this usually manifests in practical magick is that it works, but is warped, or awry - literally successful, but not with the spirit of the intent. It is always good to be clear about one's inner motivations. For instance I can see this happening with someone who was using his practice for escapism - to avoid dealing with something. A related danger might be if we were *worried* about negative effects from our practice - those effects would tend to be created by such worry. Finally, there are *always* unintended consequences - like if you get enlightened you might decide to abandon your career as an accountant, etc.

Finally, there could be some relative danger of a few techniques - for instance, invocation is used in some traditions - one becomes the Buddha. I can see how too much of this could be counterproductive, and one should counterbalance this by doing invocations of other archetypes - as many different as possible, so that one begins to see through all masks...

While most Buddhist practices are not dangerous, I also notice that there is a severe lack of some basic precautions - the inclusion of a short centering, grounding, and psychic clearing ritual before and after meditation could be very helpful both for the meditation, and also to prevent lingering effects. In my tradition, it's called banishing - and it could be very helpful for people in a Dark Night phase. Here's an article I wrote a few years back that explains and extrapolates from the basic principles: iota.goetia.net/article/affirmations.php

Interesting, David. I personally believe the entire realm of morality in Buddhist practice is getting kind of lost as we do it in the West. We're so goal oriented that we just want to get to the yolk (enlightenment) and forget about the shell and the white, which are there for a very useful purpose. No shell and no white = no yolk! I know I'm guilty of this. I've also been guilty of not caring much at times about why I practice, which I think is really not advisable. I believe we should at least ponder the thing and think about what it is we really want to get from the endeavor. And I don't think the ends justify the means in the practice of Buddhism any more than they do in any other endeavor.

As I mentioned earlier, I started practicing for expedient reasons, reasons of personal comfort. That has changed over the years but it would be good, I think, if more effort were made to get to the heart of the Big Why earlier. I listened to a Christopher Titmuss podcast today that hit upon this very topic. Titmuss came down on the side of making sure that every teacher and every practitioner be aware that there is one end game of the practice - to uncover that which is always true. Kenneth calls it the happiness that knows no conditions.

Well I couldn't disagree with you on any level, and I think the morality practices are both useful for leveraging the process, and essential in their own right.

Arthur Deikman, M.D. in his book "The Observing Self" hypothesizes that the act of cultivating virtue acts on the level of intent, and has the effect of providing motivation outside of self-centered interest. This in turn helps with the development of the observing self (the increasing identification with pure awareness) and leads to the "end of self-centeredness." See, it's all about intent. If you look at all the traditions, this is a consistent cross-cultural feature - it's in Yoga, the Vidsuggamatha, etc.

I also think it's essential in the sense that your integrity is priceless, it cannot be taken away from you, but if you lose it, nothing else can fill the void that is left. If you have it, you don't need anything else. (Integrity can be meant in it's broadest possible sense here as well).

Have you ever met a person who has lost their integrity? I have. They are, truly, lost. They know they're missing something and that it hurts like hell. They can observe other people acting out of some motivation that they don't relate to. They get confused about just what they're missing that others have and they often have no idea how to retrieve it. It's a terribly sad thing to witness.