Dana

"Would Bill have wanted for his book to be distributed this way. I feel a lot of APPRECIATION and if there some causes he cared about, I would like to donate some money for the teachings."-Seekr

Dear Andrew,

The synchronicity here is too rich to ignore. David (haquan) wrote to me yesterday to ask if I accept donations, as he is in the habit of offering a donation for teachings. Just now, you mentioned that you would like to know if there was some cause that Bill H. cared about because you would like to express your gratitude through a donation. And the fact that Bill's book is now freely available to the entire world online completes the triptych. Bill would have been thrilled beyond words to spread his teaching so far and wide.

Bill was a tireless advocate for the Buddhist system of dana, in which the teachings are freely offered by teachers whose food, shelter, and clothing needs are met by donations from their students. Bill never hesitated to ask for such support and was able to dedicate the last 20+ years of his life to teaching and sharing the dharma because the generosity of his students and dharma friends made his simple lifestyle possible. He believed that for the dharma to succeed in the west we must find a way to incorporate this system of giving into our culture.

There was a cause that Bill was passionate about and that cause was dharma. Bill called me his protégé, and one of my long term goals is to follow in his footsteps, dedicating my life to teaching dharma. Toward that end, I am proud to say that I accept dana. As long as there is rice in my bowl, I will give my time to teaching. Bill told me that although I was good at giving, I must learn how to receive and how to ask. So, I am learning.

Yours in the Dharma,

Kenneth

Kenneth,

You're on the right track here, but to really be effective with this, you have to organize us into a hierarchy based on degrees of sanctity (eg how much we donate), and create an "Us vs. Them" dynamic. In place of ceremonies, I recommend that you send donors "Dharma Karma" certificates, and perhaps make donors moderators with varying levels of privilege.

I'm kidding, of course!

Really - the reason I offer to donate for instruction is as much out of self-interest as gratitude - it makes both me and the teacher value what we are doing. When I do psychotherapy for other therapists, I always charge them their rate. That's what I'm doing with Kenneth and donating at mine.

What's the mechanism, Kenneth?

Sorry for the bad play on song titles but I am interested. You've been a great help to me.

Right. What would be the best way? In some meditation centers there are simply boxes.
Some use
www1.networkforgood.org/about-us .

Althought one needs to be a
501(c)(3) organization '” designated for Religious, Educational, Charitable, Scientific, Literary, Testing for Public Safety, to Foster National or International Amateur Sports Competition, or Prevention of Cruelty to Children or Animals Organizations

Also there is
www.fundable.com/

I have never set anything like this up. People with more experience would be helpful.

"What's the mechanism, Kenneth?"

Hi Chris and Andrew,

It's the online version of the simple box at the meditation center; I accept checks and PayPal. I don't yet know how to put a PayPal "Donate" button on this website or if it's even allowed by the terms of use agreement, but I do have a PayPal account that I will send to anyone who asks by Private Message. What this method lacks in government sponsorship, it makes up for in simplicity. Bill H. set up tax-deductable, non-profit status for his dharma teaching, but he found it to require so much paperwork that he regretted doing it.

Thanks, everyone, for the outpouring of support, and thanks to those of you who have already donated. I can immediately see that there is potential for dana-funded teaching even here in the west where we are used to thinking about things in a more structured fee-for-services kind of way. Ever since I learned about dana (again from Bill H), I've found it to be an elegant system. Everyone's needs are met and there is no formal contract. It works at the level of karma; you just "put it out there," never knowing for sure if you will "get it back." But you always get it back, one way or the other. Ha! What a delightful thing!

In Gratitude,

Kenneth

I don't think Krishnamurti ever asked anyone for a dime, but he had sports cars, beautiful houses all over the world, and eager lovers.

"Bill H. set up tax-deductable, non-profit status for his dharma teaching, but he found it to require so much paperwork that he regretted doing it."

I have experience doing this, Kenneth, if you're ever interested, and I know some attorneys and CPA's who can help, too. It requires one or two documents to start and a very simple tax return each year.

Wow, thanks, Chris, that puts an entirely new complexion on it. With your help, maybe I could overcome my bureaucratophobia. Let me mull this over for awhile...

Kenneth

"I don't think Krishnamurti ever asked anyone for a dime, but he had sports cars, beautiful houses all over the world, and eager lovers. "

I hope this comment was taken as the joke it was intended. My point was how much one can get back if they just give freely.

With no reflection towards Kenneth who I hold in the highest regard, why do you think Krishnamurti gave freely. Indeed, he loved and had fast sports cars, had the finest clothes from London's best tailors, many houses around the world,thousands of loyal and devoted followers, and a secret 25 year love affair with the wife of his closest Indian aid. What ever he may have said, he was disingenuous (lied) about his need for woman and love/romance.

I hardly view Krishnamurti as giving freely. My guess is he kept his romance secret because he knew this was the only way to keep his loyal female followers who near worshipped him for many many years. As long as he did not pick one woman, all his female followers could stay loyal. Krishnamurti turned on his lover when she stood by her husband against Krishnamurti. It also set him apart from the rest of "ordinary" folk who want/need human closeness. So the saintly Krishnamurti could seem to be above everyone else supposedly transcending ordinary human needs, appearing to live like a monk/sadhu without the need for woman or close human contact , yet having everything and more than ordinary folk. See "Lives in the Shadow with J. Krishnamurti" by Radha Rajagopal Sloss, the daughter of his secret lover. It is a terrific read.

Hello Stuart,

Thank you for this interesting note about Krishnamurti. Collecting these case studies, one might feel tempted to write a how-to book with a title like 'Become a cult leader in 30 days' '“ LOL. Having seen how Naga Dasnami sadhus are organized, I can see why the strict rules of sanyasa are so important to protect genuine spiritual teachers from their own potential ego maniac tendencies. Things are also changing in India, together with its recent economic development. One of the principles that I find interesting is the Guru Shishya Parampara system. It is the fundamental system behind the idea of lineage in Indian spiritual traditions including Buddhism. One of the main principle is that a teacher, in order to pay back his own teacher, must pass on his knowledge, art or enlightenment to at least one student who will become his spiritual heir.

What I find interesting is the focus on quality vs quantity in traditional India, the norm being 'eka guru eka shishya' (one teacher, one student '“ some have two or three students at a time). What I also find interesting is to see how this system can become corrupted as soon as quantity becomes the focus over quality.

I don't have time to develop the conclusion of my analysis here, but I think that our postmodern Western societies are fundamentally anti-traditional in the sense that they promote quantity over quality, matter and psychology over spirit and transcendence, etc. Just from the social environment and commonly accepted values in our wealthy countries, a genuine traditional Indian guru starting a group in North America or Europe is most likely to become an abusive egomaniac. Now there are a few counter examples, including orthodox rabbis who have been able to keep a similar traditional system in the West. Any thoughts on that?

" And the fact that Bill's book is now freely available to the entire world online completes the triptych. Bill would have been thrilled beyond words to spread his teaching so far and wide.
"

Hi Kenneth,

Where is book available at?

Part 1

Hi Alex,

All that systems can do is try to control what seems to be certain human inclinations. Whether they succeed or not is another question. The idea of paying back a teacher by passing on knowledge, art , what have you, to a successor is fine, but hardly guarantees anything aside from generating successors.

If you think human foibles that arise and cause problem with religious traditions, systems and institutions are a modern western phenomena, then I think you are greatly mistaken. I am more familiar with Far Eastern Buddhism than Indian traditions. There institutional corruption was wide spread before being influenced by the west. My guess the same is true in India. You will not know this by reading sectarian histories, where most all is painted in Santa Claus like fashion. For instance, the supposed Zen lineage going back to Buddha Sakyamuni in unbroken fashion, is a Chinese fabrication that took a few hundred years to settle on a story. That it has been repeated for a thousand years since, makes it no truer.

This is not to say that there are not valuable teachings coming from a variety of traditions. It is only to say that these traditions are not turning out saints and create histories out of thin air to match their needs, no matter how they present their mostly hagiographic representatives.

I think modern western societies are anti traditional in a way because they value critical thinking in a way Far Eastern and Indian societies do not. It is not that these societies do not think critically, but do it in a different manner and with certain constraints. I personally am glad I am not living in a "traditional" system.

see part 2

part 2 of reply
I think orthodox rabbis have been able to keep their tradition, but so has the Bruderhof, the Mennonites, some Catholic orders, and now some Islamic tradtitions. There are almost always subsets of populations that stick to supposedly traditional ways. I for one, am glad that most of these groups in the west anyway, do not have political power. At times, these supposed traditional groups get a little "weird" when it comes to political power and action. Remember some years ago, an orthodox Jewish student machine gunned some Muslims praying at a contested shrine. That student was blessed by one of the highest rabbis in Israel and may have been encouraged by him, I don't exactly remember all the particulars.

I spent time some years ago at what I call a ":fundamental" Buddhist group. Though there were many fine aspects to the group in terms of practice, however, over all I found the group scary to practice with and was delighted they had no political power.

Hi Yadidb,

You can check the Saints and Psychopaths thread on the forum. All of the info is there. Also someone recently posted another link to the book (via www.scribd.com ) on the dharmaoverground.org website.

Nigel

Hi Stuart,
Yes, you are absolutely right about the Zen tradition, and I suppose about the rest. My example came from orders of traditional sadhus (but their lifestyle cannot be transposed here).
Another way that seems to work, is to be frank and open, sharing practical and useful information on a forum.
We will have other opportunities to speak about this, maybe in another thread.
Best,
Alex

Hi Alex,

I have written rather extensively about the Zen tradition and the difference between what it claims for its main representatives (roshi and Zen masters) and the real world of flesh and blood people, along with an analysis of how it works, its manufactured history, and so on. For anyone interested in reading my views, see my paper,
"The Zen Master in America: Dressing the Donkey With Bells and Scarves" among other papers.

I am a long time Zen practitioner and think there is much of value in the practice. I also think there is much in the institutional presentation and setting that is troublesome and often counter productive to helping people.

For a good background in understanding religion from a sociological point of view, see the "The Sacred Canopy" by Peter Berger, inexpensive, available from Amazon. It does not deal with the truth claims of any religion but talks about how and why religion arises and develops and works in society.

there are also some great interviews with Mr. Lachs on buddhist geeks

Thanks telecaster. Vince Horn who did the interviews was terrific to work with. Vince is smart and a gentleman. It was a pleasure working with him.

Hi Stuart,

I have read your excellent papers since you started publishing them on Ardent's website and found them very accurate. Together with Ralph's article on AZI and Zen at War, I can tell you that they also had a big impact in Europe. I am actually behind the "Sanbo Kyodan the heritage of American Zen" paper. Ardent did the edition job and added a few things. I will order "The Sacred Canopy" - thanks for the tip.

As to Zen practice proper, I heard in your Buddhist Geeks interview that you have been studying with Sheng Yen Sifu. I found his description of Hongzhi's Silent Illumination unique in the sense that no one had described the progressive expansion of awareness in this manner before. Did you practice it? Would recommend it? Does it lead to "Seeing Tao" (kensho) or more to the 5th jhana?
-A

"Hi Yadidb,

You can check the Saints and Psychopaths thread on the forum. All of the info is there. Also someone recently posted another link to the book (via www.scribd.com ) on the dharmaoverground.org website.

Nigel"

Wow, that's great!

I'm just reading through it now, what a fantastic book.

Alex, Stuart, and Nigel, your Silent Illumination and hua-tou discussion was so good it merited it's own thread (and had nothing to do with this one), so I moved it to:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/33...mination+and+Hua-Tou

(I tried to figure out a way to move the posts without having my picture attached to them all, but wasn't able to do so. Sorry about that

Kenneth

Thank you Kenneth. I am glad others find it interesting. We moved strait from the first to the last paramita I guess. I had the same idea but didn't know how to technically move it to a new thread. More on the new thread, maybe tomorrow - very busy today.