Jhana and Nana

"You may not want my opinion but I'll give it anyway: forget about complicated models (fractals, quantum, periodic tables, whatever) if you're not at least third path."-Chris Marti

LOL. Amen, my dharma brother!



Kenneth

Some years ago, I got this idea that as far as our current cultural wave was concerned there were three significant happenings going on:

1. Understanding the genome
2. The inexorable unification of the globe
3. The eventual mapping of neural-endocrine function

To me, these are the three significant developments going on in the traditional knowledgebuilding, expansionist style of development typical of modern civilization. I mean within that paradigm.

Neurology/neuroscience, they are still in a very primitive stage. Even with all of those complex sounding words, like parietal, somatosensory, ventral, dorsal, lateral, and such. All of those words are basically just the names of streets or towns on a map. Instead of 14 Main Street, it's ventromedial prefrontal cortex. The important thing isn't the name of the street, the number of the house, or even the color its paint. It's what is going on inside of the house. That's actually still largely terra incognita.

I appreciate what James Austen is doing. It's largely academic though. He's not writing practice manuals. He's trying to contribute to a process that's probably going to go on for another 150 years. When it's all worked it's probably going to look a whole lot more accessible than it does in his books.

But the reason I'm bringing up any of this is to make the point that what he's doing is still metaphorical. Scientific frameworks are still metaphor. They're just metaphor in a committed relationship with mathematics. But these people are still trying to come up with effective metaphors ot organize observations and experience.

There's something about metaphor that yogis understand better than anyone else.

cont'd.

so I think that there's something very valuable in these brain-based metaphors that neuroscientists come up with. Don't get me wrong. When I say valuable, I mean worth spending 5% or so of my time engaging.

The great thing about an organically-based metaphor is how impersonal it can be. Like a mountain. It doesn't take the drama or the pathos out of one's struggles and efforts, but it does seem to place a cap on it. You just brush your teeth. You just investigate the strata. You just climb Everest.

I'm writing the way it is in my head. It might not make sense.

Bottom-line: I've gotten some serious utility out of my amateur studies of the brain. And when you think about what the brain is, it seems like something worth putting some time into investigating.

Yes, Nigel, I agree. I've been interested neuroscience for a long time but especialy since the physicists started to dabble in it; Feynman, Dyson, and Penrose. It's clear that we really don't know very much about the human brain and how it somehow manifests consciousness. Even the latest investigative technologies used by neuroscience, like fMRI, are like the reading of tea leaves. But what makes the most sense, and excites me every time I think about it, is the convergence of science and spirituality. This is what James Austin represents, and why I believe his work is so important. It's about validating both science and spiritual technologies, encouraging them to actually learn from each other and, even better, to collaborate.

My recent experiences have made it ridiculously obvious that I am going through a bio-energetic process. What that means remains indeterminate but I think that science may one day figure into the process.

Edit: typos.

"Pragmatism above all! Remember, the objective with regard to samatha/vipassana is to help people make progress, not to count the angels on the head of a pin. I conceive of 1st Gear progress as movement upward through a series of strata of mind for two reasons:

1) That's how it feels.
2) People make progress when armed with this concept.
You can investigate the froth on the surface of the sea for eons without finding the treasures that lie in the depths. Go deep, my fellow dharma divers, go deep! Every highly attained yogi I know (using the developmental model) is a jhana master in his or her own right. This holds true even for Zen practitioners who were never explicitly taught jhana. They are accessing the deepest layers of mind whether they have the terminology for it or not.

Kenneth"

I've been practicing zen with koans for about 5 years, much of the time investigating the froth on the surface I think. But not always. I recently decided to go back to the beginning. I'd be very interested to see if/how the koans map to the jhanas. You're right, we're not given the terminology of the jhanas.

So, here's the koan I'm currently working on: "Before a Buddha shrine, a dog is pissing toward heaven." This is a beginner's koan, one of the "miscellaneous koans" -- a series of 22 koans given to students in the Sanbo Kyodan school and its offshoots after they have an initial kensho experience with "mu" or another one of the "dharmakaya" koans -- to help in the process of "settling back on the ground again.

I've been sitting with this koan the past couple of weeks. Koan work involves "presenting" the koan to the teacher through physical action. My first response was to simply lift my leg like a dog pissing.

(continued)
That's a bit awkward for a woman. Female dogs squat! My teacher said, "yeah, a lot of people do that." And said to sit with the koan for awhile. Since then my progression has gone like this. Resistance to this "silly little koan." Thinking .... It's obvious that the dog doesn't care whether it's a Buddhist shrine he's pissing on or not. He's just doing his doggy thing. If you're the shrine caretaker, you get out your broom and shoo the dog away. Nothing much happening here. Deeper ... well, I can see the dog trotting around the countryside, coming on the shrine, sniffing around, lifting his leg, and trotting off. Dog has no concept of holy. Dog is just dogging around marking territory. "I was here."

This morning, after counting breaths for awhile and reaching a state of good concentration, I took up the koan again. Rather than "seeing" the dog as an object, I "became" the dog for awhile. No separtion, just dogging. This was a clear happy state of being. No troubles, just smells and sights and physical existance. Pissing felt good, and after pissing just taking off on my explorations with a joyful freedom. I would say that I was well-embedded in dog identity, when suddenly there was a frisson of energy through me, a bit of a shudder, and a shift in consciousness occurred where there was no longer idenitifcation with dog, but was much larger consciousness including dog. This was not the same as "seeing" or watching or witnessing the dog. But more like zooming out to a place where dogging was happening as a small part of awareness. Next I felt disoriented and a shiver of fear from having no center of identity. That woke me up and took me out of the state. I tried to return to it, but couldn't.

(continued)
When I described this to my husband, he thought the "dog consciousness" state was 3rd jhana, and the "zooming out" was a transition to the formless jhanas, either infinite space or infinite consciousness.

What do you think?

I am not sure... I have always seen Zen as a 3rd gear practice. I don't believe that a specific Koan would correspond to a teacher wanting you to get to a particular jhanic state. I think they just keep pulling the rug out from under you until you end up in 3rd gear... hard to say, especially because I have no Zen experience to speak of... maybe Alex can weigh in. My simple advice is if you want to cultivate the Jhanas you should do that intentionally and separate from your Koan practice... not saying to abandon the Koan...

"I have always seen Zen as a 3rd gear practice. I don't believe that a specific Koan would correspond to a teacher wanting you to get to a particular jhanic state. I think they just keep pulling the rug out from under you until you end up in 3rd gear... My simple advice is if you want to cultivate the Jhanas you should do that intentionally and separate from your Koan practice...-Clayton"

Yes, I concur with Clayton. But, like Clayton, I have very little formal Zen experience. The larger question would be, what do you want to accomplish? Having established your goal, you can just go with whatever you perceive to be the most efficient way of accomplishing it. There is no need to shoehorn that into your existing Zen practice. In other words, if you can accomplish your goals without Zen, who needs Zen? (It is very "Zen" to pose this question Are you familiar with the "sunk cost" fallacy?

Hello Hearsbirds,

A few suggestions that you may find intertesting

You koan doesn't seem to be about dogs, but more about going beyond the duality opposing the absolute (Buddha shrine, heaven) and the relative and mundane (dog piss, earth). You will figure out how this can be related to you life after kensho.

One pointed concentration on a koan may eventually lead us through the Jhanas (called 'Dhyana' in Sanskrit Mahayana texts - Zen comes the Dhyana prounonced Ch'an-na in Chinese, btw). But the purpose of koans is not to access a particular Jhana, but to bring the mind to a stop. When the false mind stops, the true mind is revealed.

When we call up the koan, we just repeat the story "before a Buddha shrine, a dog is pissing toward heaven" a few time. Then we turn it into a question, like "what does that mean?". We just ask the question "what does that mean?" again and again. We don't know, but stay with the feeling of doubt. We are in fact cultivating doubt or what a Korean master called the "don't know mind". When the doubt gets stronger and stronger it becomes our only object of concentration. No thoughts. No concern. Just a great mass of doubt. We become one with the koan (in fact one with the blank don't know mind).

After a while, it feels as if we cannot find the answer and cannot give up since the question has already become an obsession. These opposing forces can suddenly bring the mind to a full stop, leading to deep insight.

I agree with Clayton and Kenneth (who posted a reply while I was typing these lines) to say that best would be to separate Jhana practice from koan investigation in the beginning. Jhana practice should give you the samadhi power that allows one to break through the most difficult koans on a later stage.

"We are in fact cultivating doubt or what a Korean master called the "don't know mind"."

Alex who was the Korean Master? Whas it Seung Sahn Soen Sa Nim?

"(continued)
That's a bit awkward for a woman. Female dogs squat! My teacher said, "yeah, a lot of people do that." "

I wonder if anyone's ever pissed on the teacher.

"Yes, I concur with Clayton. But, like Clayton, I have very little formal Zen experience. The larger question would be, what do you want to accomplish? Having established your goal, you can just go with whatever you perceive to be the most efficient way of accomplishing it. There is no need to shoehorn that into your existing Zen practice. In other words, if you can accomplish your goals without Zen, who needs Zen? (It is very "Zen" to pose this question Are you familiar with the "sunk cost" fallacy?

"

Thank you, Kenneth & Alex & Clayton, for your kind replies. I realized after I posted my question that I just jumped in without a properly introducing myself, so I will do that elsewhere. This is a marvelous site, and I'm appreciating the diligence and sincerity of the participants here.

As to your question, Kenneth, "Who needs Zen?" Good question, indeed! What I can say in response is that I feel very drawn by koans, that "pulling feeling" you described somewhere is how it feels to me. Like I don't really have a choice. The koans speak to me and draw me forward. They won't leave me alone, even when I think I'm done with them! But it is not easy to find a koan master. Most zen teachers in the US are Soto school, which does not use koans in meditation. And there is a great taboo about talking about your koan practice in the Rinzai school as well as Sanbo Kyodan school & its offshoots -- which is how most koan work came to the US. I recently had a falling out with my teacher for the past 5 years and have been searching for another one. Have found someone, but not yet settled in & not sure yet where he's coming from.

I agree this is "3rd gear" practice. Koans are a technology for stopping the mind and entering 3rd gear through myriad gates. At least that's my hypothesis based on experience.

(continued)

"Alex who was the Korean Master? Whas it Seung Sahn Soen Sa Nim?"

Yes, it was Seung Soan Sunim.

What do I want to accomplish? My answer to that is hard to put into words. I want to still the longing in my heart for "home". While most of the "problems" in my life have resolved & I'm no longer depressed, lonely, angry, particularly confused or unkind, and I'm often aware of what Linji (Rinzai) called "this solitary brightness" that pervades the whole universe, including these thoughts and these typing fingers -- I still feel this longing, like a pool of tears right behind my eyelids, and the heart swelling as though ... now I can't describe it. But, perhaps I could answer the question by saying I want the heart swelling to be fulfilled in boundless love.

Getting back to jhanas and koans, are you familiar with Hakuin's commentary on the Five Ranks of Tozan? You can read it here: www.kaihan.com/fives.htm under the title "The Keizo dokuzi" (I don't know what that means in Japanese.) In Rinzai practice the Five Ranks are taken as koans towards the end of the koan "curriculum." It is interesting to me that Hakuin, the great reformer and systemizer of koan practice, mapped the five ranks to the "four wisdoms" -- the Great Perfect Mirror Wisdom, the Universal Nature Wisdom, the Marvelous Observing Wisdom, and the Perfecting-of-Action Wisdom. It occurred to me that he might be talking about the formless samadhis?

Strange to say, but as I began exploring this site I felt that pulling sensation again. So, there is something here for me to explore. I just don't know what, but am open to finding out. In the zen school we take four vows, one of them is "Dharma gates are manifold, I vow to enter them all."

(continued)

Last night I laid in bed for a couple of hours noting ... breath rising and falling in abdomen, sound of my oxygen compressor (I need it at night to keep my blood oxygenated), tightness in my diaphram, relaxing, toes throbbing with energy that was uncomfortable. Pressure behind my eyebrows, third eye, seeing blackness, obsidian luminous blackness. Thoughts bringing me back to what I should have said here yesterday. Noting judgment. Embarassment. More toes throbbing. More pressure behind eyebrows, more blackness for long time, very relaxed. body very relaxed and comfortable, sensuous, glad to be alive. Stretching and coming out of it. body feels long and soft and healthy.

"I wonder if anyone's ever pissed on the teacher. "

lol! Yes, that occurred to me.

Edit to add: Does a dog have Buddhanature or not? Whizz!

"Hello Hearsbirds,

A few suggestions that you may find intertesting "

Alex, thanks so much for taking an interest. This Korean style sounds very much like a combination of koan practice and huatou practice. I've worked with koans in the Rinzai style mainly, where one simply sits with the koan and allows it to do its work ... that is after the first koan "Mu", which is worked with much as you describe. I spent several months with "Mu", it was gruelling, excruciatingly painful for much of that time, dark night of the soul for sure. When it finally broke open, life was never the same again. Even when I "forgot", which happened quite often after awhile.

Later, I attended two 10-day huatou retreats taught in the manner of Master Sheng Yen at Dharma Drum Retreat Center, which is much as you describe. These were very physically demanding retreats, and my health was not good at the time. So, I wasn't able to fully participate. But did have some very interesting experiences. I remember seeing the yellow breast of a bird so vividly, YELLOW! Oh, YELLOW. Brought on that heart swelling I wrote about above. And another time I had a temper tantrum! I was so angry at the teacher for saying that huatou practice might not be the right practice for me that I stormed out of the meditation hall and across the road to the lawn and threw myself down and started kicking. Imagine a 61 year old woman doing that! Hilarious! Afterwards I couldn't stop laughing for a long time, and the teacher just looked like a gentle cuddly bear. Another time we were doing walking meditation ... their style is to do fast walking (almost running) then slow walkiing (moving like a mountain) ... it was night and dark in the meditation hall & I lost my ability to move my body.

(continued)

Everyone else returned to their seated meditation, but I couldn't move. I don't know how long I stood there. It seemed to me that I had lost the connection between volition and action. I could see the intention to move my foot, but the foot didn't move. Sorry for long digression and hijacking this thread.

Thanks for your help.

I think by the time someone lands at this site they will know the pull you are talking about. My advice (take with a grain of salt) would be

- Do a little Kasina practice to rev up your concentration
- Do Noting practice as outlined on this website trying at all cost to avoid being lost in content (looks like you have begun that already)
- Get stream entry... this will provide some relief from that feeling, but if you want it to go away you will have to take the practice up until what we call arahatship... no big deal, it can be done...
- At the same time you could spend some time working on koans, or you could wait till stream entry before exploring them again... I can't stress how important stream entry is to a yogi like yourself who feels that pull... its a one way ticket out of that spiritual thirst... the trains go at different speeds, but once you have the ticket your getting there one way or another...
- also having the spiritual feelings on inadequacy removed is not the same as having infinite love... they will have to cultivated separately...

"I think by the time someone lands at this site they will know the pull you are talking about. My advice (take with a grain of salt) would be

- Do a little Kasina practice to rev up your concentration
- Do Noting practice as outlined on this website trying at all cost to avoid being lost in content (looks like you have begun that already)
- Get stream entry... this will provide some relief from that feeling, but if you want it to go away you will have to take the practice up until what we call arahatship... no big deal, it can be done...
- At the same time you could spend some time working on koans, or you could wait till stream entry before exploring them again... I can't stress how important stream entry is to a yogi like yourself who feels that pull... its a one way ticket out of that spiritual thirst... the trains go at different speeds, but once you have the ticket your getting there one way or another...
- also having the spiritual feelings on inadequacy removed is not the same as having infinite love... they will have to cultivated separately... "

Clayton, Thanks for your encouragement! I'm not so sure about your last point, but keep an open mind.

~Carol

That might have sounded harsher than I meant it to. They will have to cultivated side by side, meaning--during moments of spiritual ecstasy you will obviously love everyone... but to infinatly loving to everyone all the time... I personally think that ideal holds a lot of people back because it seems so daunting, thats all I was pointing towards... for me I definatly found myself growing more compassionate as my practice deepened. But it doesn't mean I am mother teressa or anything...

"for me I definatly found myself growing more compassionate as my practice deepened. But it doesn't mean I am mother teressa or anything... "

LOL!

What I meant was not that I want to be more compassionate or loving, but that the love feeling in the heart swelling just wants to realize total timeless boundlessness. That's what it feels like to me, anyway, ... not something I must do or be. Hard to articulate. I feel this swelling often when the "I" is about to disappear, or just after it returns. It's the feeling tone of what might be called pure awareness ... the feeling going in and coming out, for me at least. May be different for others.

Nice stories. Thank you for sharing, Carol. As a matter of fact, I started koan practice with Bruce Harris, a French-Armerican Rinzai monk and Sanbo Kyodan teacher years ago, but I admit that what really worked was the traditional Chinese huatou method popularized by Dahui during the Song Dynasty (which is basically Sheng-yen's method).

It is actually the Chinese Zen master and scholar Nan huai-chin who brought my attention to the importance of traditional Jhana/Dhyana practice. Having learned it under the generous guidance of Kenneth, I now understand why. It is a real booster for deep insight or koan investigation.

"
Nice stories. Thank you for sharing, Carol. As a matter of fact, I started koan practice with Bruce Harris, a French-Armerican Rinzai monk and Sanbo Kyodan teacher years ago, but I admit that what really worked was the traditional Chinese huatou method popularized by Dahui during the Song Dynasty (which is basically Sheng-yen's method).

It is actually the Chinese Zen master and scholar Nan huai-chin who brought my attention to the importance of traditional Jhana/Dhyana practice. Having learned it under the generous guidance of Kenneth, I now understand why. It is a real booster for deep insight or koan investigation.



"

I see that there will be an 8-day intensive huatou retreat at Dharma Drum the end of December. I may try to go again if my health holds up. Last time I was there a year ago was when I was really sick. Didn't realize how sick until I got there. But health has been improving since a "crisis" in March. So, here's hoping.

Master Sheng Yen sent his dharma heir, Guo Xing Fashi, the current Abbot at DDRC, to Thailand to study Theravadan meditation. He will be leading the huatou retreat next winter as well. I love it there in the winter and snow. We don't get snow where I live in California.

I don't know yet how the connection or "booster" of Jhana/Dhyana practice works with koan investigation ... but I intend to find out.

Thanks again for encouragement and egging me on.