Varying technique to Path
- haquan
- Topic Author
16 years 1 month ago #54259
by haquan
Varying technique to Path was created by haquan
Given that we seem wedded to a Theravada 4 Path model here, and that certain phases of that model seem concerned with certain things (1st path with high observation, 2nd Path being "all about chakras" etc) is it possible that certain methodologies might be better suited to a particular path? Could we vary technique to speed up progression along the paths?
Here's my proposal:
No progress through Stream Entry or attaining First Path: Vipassana meditation - (this doesn't necessarily have to end, but might be included in the modalities below)
End of 1st Path to attaining second path: Concentration training, including kasinas and also training in the samatha jhanas
End of second path to attaining 3rd Path: Vajrayana techniques and Tantra
End of third path through 4th: After exploring the state for a while, Rinzai style Zen, followed by Soto style - or perhaps just Kenneth's three speed transmission.
Thoughts anyone?
D
Here's my proposal:
No progress through Stream Entry or attaining First Path: Vipassana meditation - (this doesn't necessarily have to end, but might be included in the modalities below)
End of 1st Path to attaining second path: Concentration training, including kasinas and also training in the samatha jhanas
End of second path to attaining 3rd Path: Vajrayana techniques and Tantra
End of third path through 4th: After exploring the state for a while, Rinzai style Zen, followed by Soto style - or perhaps just Kenneth's three speed transmission.
Thoughts anyone?
D
- awouldbehipster
- Topic Author
16 years 1 month ago #54260
by awouldbehipster
Replied by awouldbehipster on topic RE: Varying technique to Path
Hi David,
I like this idea. It poses the questions, "What were you practicing when you attained ___ Path?" As Kenneth, Hokai, Daniel, Vince, and Tarin discussed in the Hurricane Ranch recordings, each path does seem to have it's own "logic," as far as getting it done is concerned.
The 3rd to 4th path transition has to be the most difficult to work out. For, as Kenneth says, "we have a limited data set." I'll confess that I know little about the Rinzai Zen approach or any approach working directly with a teacher (Koan training, guru yoga, etc.). With that in mind, I believe the following three practices can facilitate one's transition from 3rd to 4th...
The first is straight up shamatha practice. Our current knowledge of the developmental model suggests that one needs to access whatever strata of mind that haven't been penetrate, and then penetrate/break them up. Since the yogi is already essentially a "master of vipssana" at this point, s/he only needs to make sure they access the stratum. The rest will happen on its own.
Second, the yogi can dwell as the witness and/or recognize rigpa whenever possible, and for as extended a duration as possible. Kenneth often quotes Ramana Maharshi's quote where he says that dwelling as the I AM "is the stick that stirs the fire and is eventually consumed by it." It takes a lot of surrender to dwell as the I AM, especially for extended durations. I think this leads to the yogi letting go of whatever vestiges of the dualistic self that are still clinging on for dear life.
(continued below)
I like this idea. It poses the questions, "What were you practicing when you attained ___ Path?" As Kenneth, Hokai, Daniel, Vince, and Tarin discussed in the Hurricane Ranch recordings, each path does seem to have it's own "logic," as far as getting it done is concerned.
The 3rd to 4th path transition has to be the most difficult to work out. For, as Kenneth says, "we have a limited data set." I'll confess that I know little about the Rinzai Zen approach or any approach working directly with a teacher (Koan training, guru yoga, etc.). With that in mind, I believe the following three practices can facilitate one's transition from 3rd to 4th...
The first is straight up shamatha practice. Our current knowledge of the developmental model suggests that one needs to access whatever strata of mind that haven't been penetrate, and then penetrate/break them up. Since the yogi is already essentially a "master of vipssana" at this point, s/he only needs to make sure they access the stratum. The rest will happen on its own.
Second, the yogi can dwell as the witness and/or recognize rigpa whenever possible, and for as extended a duration as possible. Kenneth often quotes Ramana Maharshi's quote where he says that dwelling as the I AM "is the stick that stirs the fire and is eventually consumed by it." It takes a lot of surrender to dwell as the I AM, especially for extended durations. I think this leads to the yogi letting go of whatever vestiges of the dualistic self that are still clinging on for dear life.
(continued below)
- awouldbehipster
- Topic Author
16 years 1 month ago #54261
by awouldbehipster
Replied by awouldbehipster on topic RE: Varying technique to Path
(continued from above)
Finally, there's the practice that I found most helpful. It is a combination of self-inquiry and via negativa (I wrote a blog post about this practice called "How To Meditate: Inquire, Negate, Repeat." Read it here... bit.ly/2AxWwF). This practice relates well with Daniel Ingram's idea that the anagami (i.e 3rd Path yogi) has a simple task: to see reality clearly enough. If s/he isn't seeing really clearly enough, they need to find a way to make that happen. (or as Daniel put it, "one simply needs to up the stakes.") This practice involves settling the mind to a relative degree, and then using self-inquiry ("Who am I? What is this? What is me?") to uncover any remaining tangles/mis-perceptions/dualities that remain. When something like a self, separation, or clinging appears, that's when via negativa comes in to play. The yogi can use "not this, not this" or "not me, not mine, not my self" or whatever tool of negation they desire.
As Alex said in a comment to my blog post, this practice has some similarities with Zen "hua tou" practice ("What is it? What is it?"). Keeping this question alive in one's consciousness seems to unravel the remaining confusion somehow, probably by allowing the yogi to simply "see things clearly enough."
I didn't mean to turn this thread in to a discussion of how to get from 3rd to 4th path, so we should explore the other paths as well.
Thoughts?
~Jackson
Finally, there's the practice that I found most helpful. It is a combination of self-inquiry and via negativa (I wrote a blog post about this practice called "How To Meditate: Inquire, Negate, Repeat." Read it here... bit.ly/2AxWwF). This practice relates well with Daniel Ingram's idea that the anagami (i.e 3rd Path yogi) has a simple task: to see reality clearly enough. If s/he isn't seeing really clearly enough, they need to find a way to make that happen. (or as Daniel put it, "one simply needs to up the stakes.") This practice involves settling the mind to a relative degree, and then using self-inquiry ("Who am I? What is this? What is me?") to uncover any remaining tangles/mis-perceptions/dualities that remain. When something like a self, separation, or clinging appears, that's when via negativa comes in to play. The yogi can use "not this, not this" or "not me, not mine, not my self" or whatever tool of negation they desire.
As Alex said in a comment to my blog post, this practice has some similarities with Zen "hua tou" practice ("What is it? What is it?"). Keeping this question alive in one's consciousness seems to unravel the remaining confusion somehow, probably by allowing the yogi to simply "see things clearly enough."
I didn't mean to turn this thread in to a discussion of how to get from 3rd to 4th path, so we should explore the other paths as well.
Thoughts?
~Jackson
- haquan
- Topic Author
16 years 1 month ago #54262
by haquan
Replied by haquan on topic RE: Varying technique to Path
"
I didn't mean to turn this thread in to a discussion of how to get from 3rd to 4th path, so we should explore the other paths as well.
"
Well in some ways that's the most challenging Path - and the most difficult to really know if you got or not. That goes along with some of my ideas that anagami experience is concerned with the nature of duality and paradox
Part of this theory concerns the ideas that at first one is developing basic concentration and awareness skills, then penetrating the Intermediate Zone (or integrating mind, voice, and action if you prefer) and finally penetrating all appearances.
D
I didn't mean to turn this thread in to a discussion of how to get from 3rd to 4th path, so we should explore the other paths as well.
"
Well in some ways that's the most challenging Path - and the most difficult to really know if you got or not. That goes along with some of my ideas that anagami experience is concerned with the nature of duality and paradox
Part of this theory concerns the ideas that at first one is developing basic concentration and awareness skills, then penetrating the Intermediate Zone (or integrating mind, voice, and action if you prefer) and finally penetrating all appearances.
D