Facilitating all stages of practice

Tom (tomotvos) made the following comment in Chris' Stages on the Way, Part II* thread...

"For me most of the discussions are turning out to be way above my head and level of practice, and I freely admit to looking around for, and trying to set up, more practice-oriented discussions. I have said this many times: the level of experience here and at DhO is staggering, and everyone is very willing to help. But I sometimes feel like I am interrupting a cocktail party of PhDs to ask how to do long division."

This topic has come up a lot recently, not just from Tom but from others as well. Perhaps we should put our heads together and see if there's a way that we can make this place more welcoming to those who aren't playing at the same level as the more advanced practitioners in the forum.

How can we maintain an appreciation for our robust high level discussions while simultaneously facilitating discussions aimed at helping people make progress toward finishing the first path of the 1st Gear?**

~Jackson

*http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/3596156/Stages+on+the+Way%2C+Part+II
**http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/1st+Gear

I guess I posted this thread in haste. My apologies to Tom for misunderstanding the intent of his comment.

Jackson: i think this is a great idea. As many have expressed the multiple frustrations with the beginner interpreting his place on the map. Obviously we all have different sensitivities to the symptoms we should be/are experiencing. Reading personal experiences are enlightening to beginners. Knowing that we may not feel vibrations at 16, 32, 64, 128 Hertz does not mean we "aren't getting it". Knowing when in the meditative process to let go of investigation and go with the mental forms is a common question. What do i do when this/that happens. When should i stop noting etc. Reading about Chris's path is so interesting...but its like learning about calculus when i am still struggling with division, knowing that if i am still unsure of the basics, i'll never reach my dream.

tim

Thanks for your comment, Tim.

I think we all agree that practice journals like Chris' are beneficial for others on the path - particularly those who are in similar territory, and maybe those who are not quite there but close.

What if some practitioners at other stages were willing to share their experiences in this way? I'm not putting anyone on the spot here, so don't get that idea. But perhaps one way to make this forum mutually beneficially for yogis at various levels of experience is to encourage everyone to document their experiences (successes, failures, triumphs, defeats, etc.) in a public journal format - that is, if they are so inclined.

I'll admit that I haven't always been very forthcoming about my experiences. I'm not quite as brave as Chris (cmarti) and Michael (AuguestLeo), who have allowed us a window into their experience in a way that far exceeds my own contributions to the forum. But perhaps one of these days I'll start my own KFDh practice journal for all to read. It might be a way to "pay it forward."

Thoughts?

~Jackson

"Thanks for your comment, Tim.

I think we all agree that practice journals like Chris' are beneficial for others on the path - particularly those who are in similar territory, and maybe those who are not quite there but close.

What if some practitioners at other stages were willing to share their experiences in this way? I'm not putting anyone on the spot here, so don't get that idea. But perhaps one way to make this forum mutually beneficially for yogis at various levels of experience is to encourage everyone to document their experiences (successes, failures, triumphs, defeats, etc.) in a public journal format - that is, if they are so inclined.

I'll admit that I haven't always been very forthcoming about my experiences. I'm not quite as brave as Chris (cmarti) and Michael (AuguestLeo), who have allowed us a window into their experience in a way that far exceeds my own contributions to the forum. But perhaps one of these days I'll start my own KFDh practice journal for all to read. It might be a way to "pay it forward."

Thoughts?

~Jackson"

In that other thread, I alluded to actively seeking other ways to "get my fix", and having a place to have practice journals is one of my ideas. It is not for everyone, of course, but there is so much benefit to:

1. Having a place to document what you are experiencing, for posterity or personal review.
2. Having a place where people can vicariously share in other's progress and, hopefully, learn along the way.
3. Having a place where senior practitioners can "watch" their students and interject when appropriate, as opposed to students having to always ask "is this right, is this right?".

I am corresponding privately with one person who is feeling similar angst. Wet Paint is not really set up for this kind of thing, but unfortunately all the expertise is here...

...so what to do? Create yet another online community? Is that practical, or even fair to Kenneth, Daniel, and the others that make these two communities so rich?

I can envision an invitation-only place (Ning being a great choice, I have been playing with recently) where practitioners can blog in some privacy and control who sees what they say.

Comments?

Tomo, my reply to your questions would be stay here, or on DhO, where the expertise you want is readily availble. Or, as I know also happens, use these message boards to find people you can e-mail or private message. That's another very acceptable and efficient way of getting answers to your questions. You have a nice set of friends in both places already. I think it might be very, very difficult to replicate that elsewhere, or in a new place.

Also, please consider actually working with a teacher, either through e-mail or via phone. I speak now from the experience of not having a teacher for many years and struggling through things, not knowing where in the heck I was map-wise, having big things happen and not realizing it versus having a teacher that I can talk to on a regluar basis and bounce things off of, who knows me and knows my practice and thus makes my practice that much more than it was before. I've been working with Kenneth regularly for a while now and I cannot speak highly enough of that experience.

BTW - you guys are over playing the risk of posting your personal practice experiences here. Yeah, it can be a bit scary but it's not like I'm telling you about my love life or my finances. Doing THAT would be truly scary!

i would be more than happy to air my failings to the world (which are many lives full), keeping in mind that my worldly duties as a father, husband and vocation have and will remain a priority, constraining my ability to retreat. i take to heart all advice, and value everything said on this website.

What Chris suggests above - remaining active in the forums while corresponding with a teacher/mentor via private message - is the method I've been using for a couple years now. I find that this works very well for me.

I also agree that forming yet another community may not be all that beneficial. Though, I do like some of the features available using the Ning format. I have a profile with the Tricycle Community (which is mostly worthless), and I like the way the individual profiles are set up to allow members to write blog posts. Very cool.

What else should we consider?

~Jackson

"... perhaps one of these days I'll start my own KFDh practice journal for all to read. It might be a way to "pay it forward."

Jackson,

Please do!

Your posts here and on DhO, as well as on your blog at truthaparadox.wordpress.com/ are all so valuble. I've learned much from your writings.

Thank you for sharing so selflessly!

Michael

"Wet Paint is not really set up for this kind of thing ..."

True.

I believe that with time and involvement and commitment, this forum will grow into the needs of it's members.

~ Michael

"I believe that with time and involvement and commitment, this forum will grow into the needs of it's members.

~ Michael "

I think one of my points, though, is that a forum is right for Q&A types of things. But, as Chris' "Stages" thread shows, there is also much to be gained from just sitting back and watching somebody's trials and tribulations, and occasionally comment on it. I think it is impractical for each person struggling on the Path to set up their own thread, when a model that is more blog-like fits that bill.

Just thinking out loud.

Isn't having your own thread more or less like a blog? Yes, it's more interactive than a classical blog (did I really just say "classical" about blogs?) but I like that part of this site. I'm always happy when folks here, and I mean anyone, chime in.

Second: Tomo, if you could start from scratch in a perfect world with unlimited time and resources and design the perfect web site for your practice, for assisting you with your practice, for getting you the help you feel you need, what would that web site look like, act like and feel like?

"I think one of my points, though, is that a forum is right for Q&A types of things. But, as Chris' "Stages" thread shows, there is also much to be gained from just sitting back and watching somebody's trials and tribulations, and occasionally comment on it. I think it is impractical for each person struggling on the Path to set up their own thread, when a model that is more blog-like fits that bill.

Just thinking out loud."

I agree that a blog type format is more reader-friendly than the way discussion threads work, as far as practice journals are concerned. Though, I don't think what we have going here is that bad. It could be better, but it works.

I'm glad you're thinking aloud. Conversation about site administration need to happen every now and then to keep things going smoothly.

~Jackson

"Jackson,

Please do!

Your posts here and on DhO, as well as on your blog at truthaparadox.wordpress.com/ are all so valuble. I've learned much from your writings.

Thank you for sharing so selflessly!

Michael"

Michael, thank you so much for your kind words. I'm humbled by the idea that what I have to say (or write) may actual be of benefit to others on this path.

I guess we're all giving and receiving here. What a great place to hang out.

~Jackson

"Second: Tomo, if you could start from scratch in a perfect world with unlimited time and resources and design the perfect web site for your practice, for assisting you with your practice, for getting you the help you feel you need, what would that web site look like, act like and feel like?

"

Facebook, combined with Wordpress. You need the community aspect, as well as the interactive discussions. You need to be able to PM and chat. You need to be able to blog, to facilitate the practice journalling. And you need to be able to have "bigger content", probably wiki-style. And the information needs to be accessible in a "makes sense" kind of way.

The Liferay framework now used by DhO is not bad, but has enough UI issues to make is somewhat annoying (but not half as annoying as the 2000 character limit of Wetpaint). And when I first saw the old DhO in Wetpaint, as an experienced web guy, I almost barfed at the lack of usability. So I think this community works *in spite* of Wetpaint.

Thus Ning. I am pretty impressed with what I have been playing with. Think of it like an OEM Facebook, but with some other useful stuff thrown in. I don't think it has a decent wiki, but I'll take the other stuff over that.

Hmmmm.... having worked with web based message boards of many types I agree completely that Wetpaint is limited. I, too, struggle with the 2,000 character limit. Ning, which I also have familiarity with, is very nice. There are also several free/open source messaging systems that work very well but then you have to own/rent the hardware and administer everything yourself. I think Wetpaint is okay for what we do here, and after using a lot of different systems I realize it's really not the software that's the driver of the thing. The critical suceess factor us, the users. We've adapted to Wetpoint pretty well, and I say that having been an early, vocal critic on the old DhO. I'm here for the interaction, to be able to converse with you guys. This does fine for that purpose.

I would argue that we collaborate and try to make this work, right here. This conversation is a great start!

Thought -- isn't there a way to create/maintain your own blog on your profile page?

"Thought -- isn't there a way to create/maintain your own blog on your profile page?

"

After posting my last message, I did look into that. I can actually create threads off my profile (and did create one...can you see it?). The thread does not show up in the "Updates" sections...not sure if that is a good thing or bad thing. But if you can read it, I guess whoever wants to can spin a "Practice notes" thread off their profile, and others (such as your personal KFD mentor) may read it if they are so inclined.

The 2000 character thing will be a real obstacle, I think, but Twitter has trained me to think in 140 character sentences now, so maybe it might work.

"Thought -- isn't there a way to create/maintain your own blog on your profile page?"

Chris, good point. Though, I don't know if the threads from individual profiles show up in the "updates" section of the site. I think the notification shows up in the 'Community Activity' window, which is more difficult to locate at first glance.

I think that's the only downside I can think of.

EDIT: jeez, did it really take me 20 minutes to write this comment? I don't know how I missed the above comment.

Jackson

"The thread does not show up in the "Updates" sections...not sure if that is a good thing or bad thing. But if you can read it, I guess whoever wants to can spin a "Practice notes" thread off their profile, and others (such as your personal KFD mentor) may read it if they are so inclined."

Tomo, not only can I see and read your profile test thread but I can choose to add it to my "Watch List" so that it will then show up on the Updates page when I visit here, assuming you add new comments. Maybe you could add a second comment to that test thread so we can make sure I'm right?

tomolvos: "But I sometimes feel like I am interrupting a cocktail party of PhDs to ask how to do long division."

I couldn't craft a more appropriate statement for how I often feel when following the discussions in this forum. Thanks for highlighting it, and thanks to all the contributors to this thread who are concerned enough to want to craft a way to reach out to the less advanced travelers in this community. I like the idea of creating a practice journal on one's profile page and I started my own this afternoon as a step toward honoring one of my few resolutions for the new year. I truly value and welcome any comments or thoughts about my journey from anyone here who cares to share them with me. It would be nice if there was a way to have entries to these personal journals appear in the updates - but there is always the option of "Watching" the threads that are of interest.
I'm sorry that I've not contributed much here lately to the forums, this is due in part to my relatively limited level of experience, but also because I have been busy dealing with issues presently confronting me in my personal life which have no direct bearing on the discussions at hand.
But I do want to acknowledge that I read virtually everything in the updates regularly and I am so very grateful to all of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. This site and more importantly, the members of this community have been an immeasurably valuable source of strengh and inspiration to me; I look forward each day to reading the discussions and learning from all of you here.

My heartfelt thanks to you all,

John

I did add another comment, so I hope you see it. I invite you to reply as well, to make sure that door is open.