Having complete awareness of the cycles

Hello all,

My name is Nick. I just finished a 10 day Goenka course 4 days agao. Some of you may have read my account on DHO.

www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...oards/message/297362

I am fully aware of every cycle which am going through. And that awareness is purely physical. I have practised in the Goenka tradition for the past nine years. I feel every sensation on the body. Or rather wherever the mind is placed I feel vibration there. And as we speak there is [pleasant sensation all around. So for me AP is feeling the body as a mass of flowing pleasant vibrations. Now from reading other people's account of experiencing their cycles, it seems some are not so sensitve to what seems to be going on inside the body. This is what I see.

There seems to be a ball of energy which makes its way up the spine or close to it and stops at each of the places that correspond to chakras. Daniel has told me that talking about chakras in my experience probably indicates they are AP events. The sensations eminating from those spots in order as this ball of energy stops at each one and cleans it out so to speak and is clearly seen. This really corresponds with what Goenka says about burning out the sankharas. It really feels like it is clearing a path up the body and at the moment it spends a heap of time at the forehead . On the course I realsied I could manipulate it and stop it at a point on the body and watch it burn out , or what felt like a burning out of the unpleasantness there. So it starts at the bottom close to one's anus then up to the stomach, which I always assume is the fear knowledge then up to the solar plexus point, then the chest, the throat , by now the I have passed into this equanimity stage and the sensations shift into msubtler pleasantness almost a cooler feel. Then it passes to behind the eyes and stays at the forehead then up to the crown and then I have a frution. I see this clearly and without any need to feel the mental reaction to each of the flows of sensation to be witnessed.
For years everytime I had a strong negative reaction, I was able to pinpoint where on the body that reaction was stemming from. I was almost always focused on the chest and throat area and at times when scared the stomach. That is what Goenka's method is all about.

So is it possible that people who have a ttained path are not as concentrated?

I gained 8 mental absorbtions that I previously did not have access to after my 5th day, which I belive is when I achieved first path. I access them at lightning speed through will of mind alone.

Hi Nick,

I've read your retreat experience at DhO, very interesting. Congratulations for your achievements!
I couldn't validate what you are saying (I'm pre-Stream Entry).
I went to a 10 day Goenka reatreat in april 2008, very useful to establish the practice, but they provided too little information in order to understand jhanas and progress of insight stages.
I still use physical sensations as a vehicle for insight practice and I'm curious about the progress on the Path from the Goenka side.

Please could you elaborate more about cycles from a progress of insight point of view, if you are familiar with the maps?
I think that the chackra cycles you mention, culminating in fruitions, cover also the jhanas-nanas territory (the strata of mind in the model provided by Kenneth in this site).
Did you observe any strict relationship between chackras and nanas?

I have this idea that the Goenka way of practicing is more energy oriented and affects the quality of meditation experiences (your 'awareness of the cycles').
I agree with you when you say that A&P "is feeling the body as a mass of flowing pleasant vibrations".
The 3rd jhana, too, and the dissolution nana, are described as mostly bodily/flowing/pleasant/cool/vibrational.
In the end, I'm still a little doubty about the correct mapping.

Umberto

Hi Geppo,

I myself have tried to work out where each of these points up the body corresponds with the Knowledges. I can't seem to place all of them. But I'll give it a go.

You see, due to doing only Goenka for the past 9 years, the mind has been conditioned to give importance only to the sensations of an experience, whether emotional or thinking. So I have done just that. I got flooded with passion, I could see where the sensations related came from in the chest. Anger-the chest, fear, definitely the bottom of the stomach, Depression, it seems the chest or solar plexus.

So for me
4th nana and 5th nana are a mass of gross pleasant sensations all over the body in and out.
The 6th Fear nana is definitely the bottom of the stomach.
the 7th nana of misery I would say seems to be the solar plexus and the chest. But here is where I don't seem to know what the mental reaction would be as I am just equanimous with the sensations there, no mental stuff goes on.
Maybe 8, 9, 10 would occur between the chest and throat. The throat certainly has some significance. I am all concieted when I have a harsh flow of sensations at the throat. I havent really investigated further.

But I know, I hit the 11th nana equanimity of formations at about the throat area or after the negative sensations there dissipate. Sensations all over the body get subtler and the mind feels freer and lighter. Then as this energy goes up to the temple, it is easier to see what is occuring in the mind. Hard to explain. Then soon after if it doesnt just sit at between my eyes like it has recently, It moves up and then a frution moment occurs and then back to the gross pleasantness of the A/P and dissulution and it all starts again.

Nicolai,

This is all pretty interesting. However, you may come to find that the correlations between ñanas and chakras tend to change as one attains higher paths, and sometimes even during subsequent review cycles within a path. It's tempting to think that there is a hard and fast correlation, but in my experience this just isn't so.

Also, in your first post you wrote that you were full aware that, "awareness is purely physical." Say more about this...

~Jackson

"Nicolai,

This is all pretty interesting. However, you may come to find that the correlations between ñanas and chakras tend to change as one attains higher paths, and sometimes even during subsequent review cycles within a path. It's tempting to think that there is a hard and fast correlation, but in my experience this just isn't so.

Also, in your first post you wrote that you were full aware that, "awareness is purely physical." Say more about this...

~Jackson"

Hi Jackson,

The truth is , although a little bit of curiosity about how the chakras and nanas correlate is there I seem to have little interest arising to explore it further. All I know is there is a cycle and for me it seems mostly, perhaps not purely, a physical experience. Or rather the sensations are more prodominant than the mental components.

I really feel I go staright to the sensations that relate to an emotion or mental state because that is what Ive been doing for 9 years. If I felt myself getting miserable or angry, the habit was to go staright to the sensations that were being reacted to and observe with equanimity. That is what the mind still does. I wont say that there aren't any mental reactions to those sensations. There have been. But ,well, in my current state of being, whatever that is, the mind seems to be so much more on top of the sensations and there is little mental reaction going on. That is why I feel I am meditating all the time. I'm not giving the mind a chance to emntally react to the sensations. This seems extreme when I say it and I think I need to invesitgate further to see if this is as it is. At least the most obvious negative sensations are observed as purely sensations. There may be subtler stuff which I havent noted as just sensation. I'll get back to you on this one. You have given me a push to review it all.

But really what I wanted to know was how others experienced the cycles as intially my experience seemed different from other people's account. Jackson, what do you experience?

On the DhO, Tarin posted that his experience was simliar to mine. Both of us had been immersed in the Uba Khin/Goenka technique of purely bodily sensations for many years. I am curious to see how using a different technique influences what is experienced in the cycle.

I think I understand where you're coming from a little bit better now. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, emotions and feelings have physiological correlates. Emotions are clusters of the five skandhas, as are all conditioned phenomena. Experiencing this truth directly through practice can be very healing and liberating.

I'm not sure I would go as far as to say that "awareness" is purely physical. When talking about being "aware of" something, the "of" is the conditioned reality (in most cases - it gets tricky with the 2nd Gear practice). However, it could be argued that Awareness is not a thing at all, and thus can't be "physical". This is something to explore further in practice.

Check out the thread on "Jack Kornfield and the 3 Speeds" to get a feel for the way that different understandings of Awareness can be helpful to our practice.

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/35...eld+and+the+3+Speeds

Nice to have you around. Keep us updated on your practice

~Jackson

"But really what I wanted to know was how others experienced the cycles as intially my experience seemed different from other people's account. Jackson, what do you experience?

On the DhO, Tarin posted that his experience was simliar to mine. Both of us had been immersed in the Uba Khin/Goenka technique of purely bodily sensations for many years. I am curious to see how using a different technique influences what is experienced in the cycle. "

I haven't been paying attention to cycles much, lately. I'm not doing vipassana right now, as I've taken up inquiring into a hua-tou - a Ch'an Buddhist practice. I know there are lots of others who are currently practicing vipassana, and who would have many current experiences to share. Let's hope they chime in!

Also, check out Chris' "Stages on the Way to Cessation" thread. There's a lot of material in there that you may find interesting and useful, particularly earlier on.

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/31...the+Way+to+Cessation

~Jackson

"I think I understand where you're coming from a little bit better now. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, emotions and feelings have physiological correlates. Emotions are clusters of the five skandhas, as are all conditioned phenomena. Experiencing this truth directly through practice can be very healing and liberating.

I'm not sure I would go as far as to say that "awareness" is purely physical. When talking about being "aware of" something, the "of" is the conditioned reality (in most cases - it gets tricky with the 2nd Gear practice). However, it could be argued that Awareness is not a thing at all, and thus can't be "physical". This is something to explore further in practice.

Check out the thread on "Jack Kornfield and the 3 Speeds" to get a feel for the way that different understandings of Awareness can be helpful to our practice.

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/35...eld+and+the+3+Speeds

Nice to have you around. Keep us updated on your practice

~Jackson"

Yes, you are right. It is an extreme view. One of which I havent invesitagted fully. Very interesting this Awareness. But would it exist if there were no sensate component? No 5 sense doors. That is why there seems to be no awareness during the blip out (cessation). Just before and after. I must admit it intrigues me to think how awareness could just be without sensation suporting it. But I have not explored the 2nd gear and 3rd gear of Kenneth's teachings. I am intrigued by it though.

"That is why there seems to be no awareness during the blip out (cessation). Just before and after."

That's one way of understanding what happens in cessation.

However, Awareness need not be lacking for discontinuity to occur. One view is that continuity is an illusion supported by the faculty of memory. But if memory ceases in cessation, there would be no way to remember if awareness was there or not! Intriguing, isn't it?

My experience leads me to believe that the latter view is more likely, but I can't say that I know for sure. The Burmese Theravadan view is in the minority in regarding this debate, as even the Thai Forest tradition leans toward there being Awareness not dependent on objects, which they refer to as "Citta".

Like I said earlier, it's something to investigate in practice. I certainly don't have all the answers, which is why my practice is so important to me. It's fun to talk about though

~Jackson

"
However, Awareness need not be lacking for discontinuity to occur. One view is that continuity is an illusion supported by the faculty of memory. But if memory ceases in cessation, there would be no way to remember if awareness was there or not! Intriguing, isn't it?

~Jackson"

Hmmmm, yes. I have thought about that. Memory is definielty born of a sensate universe. We rememeebr through thoughts. And thoughts seem to be mere vibrations with perhaps the mental imgery accompanying it. . I had a very vivid experience when meditating on my course where the subtlest of vibrations was felt all over and when thoughts crossed through the mind there was a vibratory element to them. Hard to explain. Not sure how far that goes though. Needs more investigation.
Very intriguing indeed!

Hi Nikolai,

going back to the original subject of your thread, I found similarities in your Path experiences and Bruno Loff's report (if you have not read this already):

dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussio...oards/message/322059

A lot of 'energy stuff' in both...