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Is my wife enlightened?

  • telecaster
  • Topic Author
15 years 11 months ago #55340 by telecaster
Is my wife enlightened? was created by telecaster
Serious question.
I've known her about two years now.
Whenever I would talk to her about the insight maps, her reaction was always as if she knew exactly what I was talking about. At first I'd look at her and say, no, wait, you don't know about this thing (for example "fruition" ) because you can't really know unless you've been there.
But, over time as I learn more and talk to her more I'm thinking there is a good chance that she has at least gotten stream entry. She understands all about the A&P, she gets the "dark night," she relates to equanimity, she read Dr. Ingram's description of "formations" and she said she commonly experienced those (they still make no sense to me), and the descriptions I've read her on fruition sound to her like something that happens to her from time to time (she especially relates to sense that her brain has "re-booted" afterwards).
However, she is not a buddhist or at all familiar with eastern-type spirituality or meditation techniques.
But, she has been an utterly devoted Christian since childhood and has always had unshakable faith that she was safe in the hands of a loving God who always had her best interests at heart. She doesn't go to Church or get involved in relgion in any way, she just loves Jesus, basically, and lives a life of frequent and intense prayer. And, is a huge pot smoker.
So, my theory is that if she really has had fruitions, it is because her devotional style of spirituality has, for whatever reason, taken her there.
Oh and she also (unlike the average Christian, I think) knows that everything changes, knows that there is no satisfaction to be had from sense pleasures, and doesn't believe in a permenant self or soul.
What do you think?
  • kennethfolk
  • Topic Author
15 years 11 months ago #55341 by kennethfolk
Replied by kennethfolk on topic RE: Is my wife enlightened?
You certainly can't rule it out. Developmental enlightenment is a natural, organic process that can happen to humans under certain conditions, The conditions in question have to do with balancing concentration and investigation. When you access and then penetrate (see the changing nature) of a certain number of strata of mind, you get to the stage we call stream entry. If you access and penetrate more strata of mind, you go "higher" up the scale of development. This can happen during meditation, prayer, communing with nature, and in who-knows-what other situations. Some practices, e.g. vipassana/samatha meditation are carefully designed to foster this development and are therefore created from the ground up to be very efficient... but Buddhism does not have a monopoly on enlightenment by any stretch of the imagination.

On the other hand, it is not unheard of for people to hear descriptions of developmental enlightenment phenomena and mistakenly map other experiences onto those descriptions. In short, there is no way to know for sure whether your wife is a stream enterer based on the data you've given us so far, but it is possible.

Kenneth
  • roomy
  • Topic Author
15 years 11 months ago #55342 by roomy
Replied by roomy on topic RE: Is my wife enlightened?
Hubris pinned firmly in place, let me refer to Shinzen Young's observation that all kinds of extreme physical and emotional events can be dharma gates. As a woman, I can add that a few of them-- like pregnancy and childbirth (and in some times and places, having to put extraordinary effort into 'counting' as a human being)-- offer women particular 'opportunities.' Susan Segal's *Collision with the Infinite* is a gripping read on unexpected enlightenment (of a fairly hair-raising sort).

One of the thing I really like about the Vajrayana lineage I'm most familiar with are the stories about 'hidden yogis/yoginis' whose accomplishments go unrecognized for most or all of their lives-- until the proof at parinirvana. There are also acknowledged 'natural sages' whose wisdom is derived from a natural wakeful attention to the events of their lives.

In any case, aside from an 'answer'-- what would extending the question as a kind of impromptu 'Metta' practice be like, I wonder: what if I asked myself this question about the people I encounter/interact with? What if I asked myself if the checker at the supermarket with the picture of her granddaughter on the register is enlightened? Or my adult daughter in the midst of carefully differentiating herself from, and criticizing, me? Or my boss, in the midst of one of his sometimes conflicting and self-contradictory demands?
  • cmarti
  • Topic Author
15 years 11 months ago #55343 by cmarti
Replied by cmarti on topic RE: Is my wife enlightened?

Beautiful, Roomy! I'm convinced my 17 year-old daughter is in some way enlightened. But that's kind of your point, isn't it? Struggling and life issues may indeed be a door to awakening.

  • telecaster
  • Topic Author
15 years 11 months ago #55344 by telecaster
Replied by telecaster on topic RE: Is my wife enlightened?
Rebecca and I were talking about this this morning and she said a couple of interesting things.
She said "I know that I AM here in this body but I also know that I am way more than that, I'm way bigger than what appears here as "me." So it often feels strange to identify with this thing here (her body, etc.). Sometimes I'll look in the mirror and think 'what is that?' " This 'rebecca' seems so small and silly compared to all that I really am."
One more thing on my lovely wife :)
The thing about her that to me makes it seem like she has a lot of insight is this: she is, from the outside and at all times, completely ordinary -- draws no attention to herself, creates no drama.
  • roomy
  • Topic Author
15 years 11 months ago #55345 by roomy
Replied by roomy on topic RE: Is my wife enlightened?
'An interesting Sufi affirmation about sainthood, mentioned by Hujwiri and others, is that there are a number of unknown saints on earth at any given time. They are unknown (as saints) not only to society at large but also to each other and even to themselves. Because their sainthood and their beneficial effect on the world are not part of their own personal view, they are thereby preserved from falling prey to conceit on account of the excellence of their spiritual station.

Tradition reckons the unknown saints at four thousand, but such numbers can be representational. Sufi stories often feature characters resembling the traditional picture of the unknown saint, including humble and inconspicuous women whose inner illumination shines forth only in response to a genuine need in the search for truth. In this respect, as teaching figures these anonymous Sufi women resemble the lao-po of Ch'an Buddhist tradition, who generally appear to be insignificant peasant women until an occasion arises when a sincere question or an authentic dilemma deserves an answer, or an occasion arises when an academic idiocy or ecclesiastical ego requires a shattering.'

From Twilight Goddess, by Thomas Cleary and Sartaz Aziz; pg. 227
  • mikaelz
  • Topic Author
15 years 11 months ago #55346 by mikaelz
Replied by mikaelz on topic RE: Is my wife enlightened?
" And, is a huge pot smoker."

seriously? wow. well.. there goes my theory that smoking pot has been the reason i've been making so little progress =O
  • telecaster
  • Topic Author
15 years 3 months ago #55347 by telecaster
Replied by telecaster on topic RE: Is my wife enlightened?
On Sunday I was looking at Kenneth's 1-8 list of qualities of the "direct path" (post 38 on his Third Gear, Tolle, etc. thread) and was struck by how different it was from what I'd have thought.
But, it was no surprise to me that when I read the list to Rebecca she strongly identified with it, especially numbers 5-8.
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