The Buddha on jhana

"Just as in a blue-, white-, or red-lotus pond, there may be some of the blue, white, or red lotuses which, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those blue, white, or red lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture..."

'” AN 5.28

"There's no jhana for one with no discernment,
no discernment for one with no jhana.
But one with both jhana & discernment:
he's on the verge
of Unbinding."

'” Dhp 372

www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca...a-samadhi/jhana.html

Interesting that you'd post this, I just finised reading Richard Shankman's book "Samadhi" a wonderful exploration of Jnana in the Theravada tradition. I must say that I am very interested in how Jnana and insight work together in regards to attaining paths. Can you say a few words on this Kenneth? I am more interested in your personal experience than what the texts say about it.

Hey Mark -- have you read all of the "First Gear" material right here on Kenneth's web site? Kenneth has posted some very cogent and marvelous stuff there that addresses your question.

"I must say that I am very interested in how [jhana] and insight work together in regards to attaining paths. Can you say a few words on this Kenneth?"-Mark VanWhy

Hi Mark,

One thing that becomes ever more clear to me in working with students from all over the world is that concentration (samadhi) is more likely than investigation to be the limiting factor in a yogi's progress. Most people are able to ratchet up the investigation, through effort, to see that the apparently solid phenomena of our experience are composed of smaller phenomena, all of which are constantly coming and going. In other words, most people can correctly apply vipassana with relatively little training. Concentration, on the other hand, requires years of diligent practice. It's a legitimate skill, like playing a musical instrument. No amount of theory or conceptual understanding will enable a person to play trumpet, for example. The only way to gain even low levels of proficiency on trumpet is to practice your tail off. To actually master the trumpet takes years.

I think modern people are often resistant to the idea that the results they so desperately want will only come after years of sustained effort. Nonetheless, that's the situation with regard to developmental meditation. There is no free lunch in the land of jhana. The more you do it, the better you get. And there is a direct relationship between concentration and insight. In order to work your way up through the insight knowledges, you have to access and penetrate each new stratum of mind as it presents itself. The penetration comes from vipassana (investigation), but you can't penetrate a stratum of mind you haven't accessed. Access comes from concentration (samatha).

Technical note: Careful not to confuse the words jhana (absorption) and jnana, which is the Sanskrit version of the Pali word ñana. In the context of this thread, we are dealing with jhana.

Hehe, sorry for the spelling mistake, I have been reading biographies of vedantic masters lately so I guess that's where I picked up the odd spelling. But yes, we're indeed talking about jhana, in Sanskrit dhyana. A a sweet smelling rose by any other name.

So, since the thread was titled the Buddha on Jhana it would be pretty easy to take a scholarly run at the Jhana systems and the different ways of classifing them in the Suttas, Abhidharma, and Visuddhimagga. It's really interesting stuff, the most interesting point being that the Buddha never once mentioned Access Concentration, Neighbourhood Concentration, or any such term in his teachings. That's not to say that such a state doesn't exist, rather just that the Buddha didn't ever mention it.

However, I am more interested in what these states actually are and how to work with them.

Daniel's take on it is that the Rupa [form] Jhana's are all subject to the three characteristics. It was really a shock for me to start to look at Jhanas in this way, and I must say it eased my attachment to the states greatly once I could see that he is right. However it seems that even though the Jhanas are sujbect to the three characteristics they are not exactly sensual experiences like most of the other arisings that we look at in terms of the three characteristics either. So what are they?

Bhante Gunaratana is really the only teacher I have found so far who has given a good description of how the Jhana's can potentially work together with insight practice. I did read the "First Gear" content on the site, but honestly I didn't find that it addressed it very well. That's only because the question I am asking is so specific, but I don't want to hijack the thread by asking about something that I may need help with. "The Buddha on jhana" is a topic all unto itself.

Hi Mark,

I'm more interested in your question than in keeping this thread pristine. Can you say more about it?

Kenneth

Mark, it just occurred to me that you and I should talk on Skype, record it, and post it here on the site so everyone could hear it. I'd really like to address your questions in detail. What do you think?

Kenneth

" What do you think?"

What do I think? I think I would have to be crazy to miss a chance to talk with an Arahant about Jhana. Let's do it!

Sounds great, Mark! I'll PM you and we'll set it up.

"What do I think? I think I would have to be crazy to miss a chance to talk with an Arahant about Jhana. Let's do it!"

Thanks Kenneth and Mark. Kenneth I really appreciate that you give knowledge and guidance like this.

And I am putting my vote in on this one!

Hi Mark,

I'm really looking forward to our talk, but I don't want you to have to wait for an answer. I believe the key to understanding this particular point is to think in terms of layers or strata of mind. The first stratum of mind, if taken as an object of absorption, leads to 1st jhana. In order to glean the resident insight, however, (1st ñana, Knowledge of Mind and Body), you have to "vipassanize" it. That happens when you remain within this same stratum of mind, but turn your attention toward the changing, unsatisfactory nature of the experience. Jhana only survives as jhana while you are willing to ignore the fact that it's passing away in each moment. As soon as you notice this "passing away" on a microscopic level, the mind tires of it and moves up into the next stratum of mind, the 2nd. This is an inherently unstable stratum, so there is no jhana available; there is no place for the mind to rest. But it's a stratum of mind, nonetheless. As such, if you notice its changing and unsatisfactory nature, it coughs up its resident insight (2nd ñana, Knowledge of Cause and Effect). The mind tires of it and moves on to the 3rd stratum of mind. Again, no place to rest here, as it is inherently unstable, so there is no resident jhana. But there is an insight knowledge (3rd ñana, Knowledge of the 3 Characteristics). Moving on, you get to the 4th stratum of mind, which contains both a jhana (2nd), and an insight knowledge (4th ñana, Knowledge of the Arising and Passing Away of Phenomena). Onward and upward: the 5th stratum of mind has both a jhana (3rd) and an insight knowledge (5th ñana, Knowledge of Dissolution). And so on...

(cont. below)

(cont from above)

Please don't hesitate to write with more questions or to seek clarification on what I've shared so far even while we work on setting up our Skype talk. It may be that I've misunderstood your question and you are looking for a specific technique to deconstruct or "vipassanize" each new stratum. If so, let's keep at it until you are satisfied that you know what to do and why you are doing it.

Metta,

Kenneth

Hi Kenneth,
This seems like a good time to ask a question that Ive had for a while about your teaching on this subject of jhana and penetrating the layers. Although my exposure to traditional teachings (especially higher level teachings) is limited, I am unaware of others claiming this centrality (or even necessity) of training in jhana for attaining full realization. Help convince me that this is really what I need to be spending my meditation time working on.
Thanks,
Sol

Hi Sol,

I feel very open about this. I don't believe there is One True Way, and I'm not much of a "convincer." I just call 'em as I see 'em and hope someone might benefit. But I can say that when I look around at various people who I think are enlightened, one thing they all seem to have in common is prodigious concentration. Depending on their training and indoctrination, they may not talk about their experience in terms of jhana, and they may not experience their mind as consisting of layers. There are any number of ways to think about experience and practice. But I don't see enlightened people who lack concentration. What do you think? (I'm guessing you were not entirely convinced by the Buddha quote at the top of this thread. I'll re-post it here for context:)

"There's no jhana for one with no discernment,
no discernment for one with no jhana.
But one with both jhana & discernment:
he's on the verge
of Unbinding."

'” Dhp 372

I'm genuinely interested in hearing your views.

Kenneth

Won't concentration grow naturally anyways for someone following the advaita way? I'm meditating the way Adyashanti is calling "allowing everything to be as it is" these days, and things (thoughts, mental states, emotions etc) seems to get an increasingly ability to float right through me, instead of getting stuck the way they did before, and my meditations are generally pretty pleasant. I'm not doing anything in order to try concentrate, but my concentration seems to grow anyway.

"Won't concentration grow naturally anyways for someone following the advaita way?-Thittato"

I think there are two questions here, Thittato, because Adyashanti's technique, as you've described it here, is not the same as Ramana's Advaita method of dwelling as the I Am, which I call dwelling as the Witness. To actually dwell as the Witness requires a great deal of concentration, in which case the answer to your question is "yes, concentration will develop anyway, even though you are not targeting jhana."

The practice you describe is more of what I would call an "open awareness" practice, which does not necessarily require much concentration, so although I don't have enough data to answer confidently, my hunch is that that answer is "no, that method will not lead to concentration sufficient to access all the strata of mind and must therefore be supplemented by other practices if the goal is arahatship."

Kenneth

Hi Kenneth,

Thanks for your response. That was quite convincing to me. I was just wondering if you might be overemphasizing jhana because "strata of mind" has become your pet theory.

I dont think I have much of an opinion on this, since I dont know what it will take to get me there. In my own practice, I worked heavily on concentration for a number of years before I ever had a qualified meditation guide. Then after being introduced to vipassana, I turned my back on concentration work, thinking that I had wasted a lot of time. (Although I have now known for some time that this was not true and that I actually made major developments in my insight during this time.) During my most recent retreat (about 7 or 8 months ago), my most significant breakthrough came through discovering the "state" and practice of just sitting, so I have generally returned to that practice since then.

It does seem like it is probably time for me to get back to working on jhana.
Thanks,
Sol

interesting! I think taking the nanas as objects gave me something interesting enough to pay attention to that I developed some jhannic concentration by accident...
That quote makes a lot of sense in first gear context!
thanks, Kenneth!
--Jake

One the subject of the arupa [formeless] jhanas.

I must say I am a bit confused about them. I have not really ever had any state or experience which corresponds with the discription of "boundless space" ect. The closest I have had is brief experiences where I am in forth jhana and suddenly I become aware that I can no longer see the blackness which I normally see when my eyes are closed. Very impossible to describe, and so far very fleeting, but it's the only experience that I have had which I can relate to the discriptions of the arupa [formless] jhanas.

Can someone please say a few words on the 4 formless jhanas, and how they are attained once the rupa jhanas are solid attainments.

Hi Mark,

If you haven't already, check out page titled "The Arupa (immaterial) Jhanas" in the 1st Gear section of the site.

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/The+...immaterial%29+Jhanas

This may just be what you're looking for.

~Jackson

Thanks very much, actually I hadn't come across that link yet. Very discriptive. I wasn't really very interested in the formless Jhana's until I heard Kenneth saying in his Buddhist Geeks interview that the 6th jhana had some similarity/relationship with pure awareness. I just found it curious that I spent so many hundreds of hours in the 4th jhana and never bumped into the formless jhanas. I would have expected that it would be a very natural progression. Not so far, but I'm sure it will open up when it's meant to.

I really find that this reference, by Bhante Gunaratana, to be a great description of jhanas, more so than the more terse stuff directly in the suttas:

www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html

I particularly like how it expands on the jhanic factors, and what is gained and lost moving from one (rupa) jhana to the next. But my question for the jhana experts is, is it an accurate description of their experiences?

Awesome find Tom! It's interesting that you'd mention Bhante Gunaratana because eariler I was PM'ing Kenneth questions relating to Jhana and I expressed that of all the material that I have come across I find Bhante Gunaratana has perhaps the most balanced and yet also the most comprehensive teachings on Visuddhimaggaesk Jhana that I have encountered. However, I haden't yet come across the resourse you just posted. I will look forward to reading it with great enthusiasm. Thanks.