Nirodha Samapatti VS Phala Samapatti. Is there a difference?

Hi all,

First up, I am not an anagami and have no access to nirodha samapatti.

This one is for anyone who has attained a path and hopefully some 3rd and 4th pathers will weigh in.

I have attained at least 1st path with some doubts about whether I am 2nd or not. I just flew on a plane from Australia to Chile and I meditated the whole flight going up and down the jhanas and I had a big fruition which left me different with a perspective that was wider, bigger and the "I" is less sticky.

Anyway, I have been able to access, since I got 1st, a state which I can't find an explanation for. I know all states are transient and therefore should investigate them as such, but my curiosity gets the better of me and therefore I want to ask if this is experienced by others.

This state or mental absorbtion is accessed by willing the mind to be enveloped in the slight build up of sensations/energy at the crown of the head just before a fruition occurs. The mind gets enveloped in it and feels like it is stuck in one spot. No thoughts fly by unless one intentionally wills a thought. It can be held for an indefinite time and the cycles keep occurring in it. When a fruition occurs while I am in this absorbtion the absorbtion gets stronger. I am aware of the whole body in this absorbtion and is unlike any of the 8 Jhanas which I also have access to. It is certainly different to the 4th jhana. It got me looking for explanations in various books on jhanas and I read a paragraph in Mahasi Sayadaw's The Progress of Insight which read

"In one who applies himself to achieving the attainment of fruition, knowledge of arising and passing away will arise at the beginning. Advancing from there in the due sequence, soon the knowledge of equanimity about formations is reached. But when skill in the practice has been acquired, the knowledge of equanimity about formations will arise quickly even after four or five acts of noticing. If the power of concentration has reached perfection, the fruition consciousness will repeatedly become absorbed in cessation by way of fruition attainment. The mind can thus reach absorption even while one is walking up and down, or while taking a meal, and the fruition attainment can remain for any length of time resolved upon. During the fruition attainment, the mind will abide only in the cessation of formations and will not be aware of anything else."

When I first read it I thought Mahasi was talking about cessation being lengthened kind of like I guess nirodha samapatti would be like where conciousness has been turned off. But then I read it again and the part highlighted says only the cessation of formations occurs, not of all conciousness. Any thoughts?

When I revisit this absorbtion it certainly feels like something has shut down. Certain things are not arising, but there is still awareness of the body.

I also read this quote from here www.dhammaspread.org/Page416.htm

"In the case of lokuttara (supramundane) jhanas, of which there is almost no mention in Buddhist texts, the basic requirement is the yahn or path knowledge of the first path realized through vipassana development. This is then used as the object of samadhi, and while traditional anapanasati is no longer used, there is emphasis on the out breath, and staying there, using this yahn."

Is this mental absorbtion I talked about a lokuttara (supramundane) jhana?

Can anyone shed light on this strange mental absorbtion I can access at will?

I understand it is just another thing to consider the three characteristics of, but like I said, I am extremely curious about whwther have experience of it and know if this is the phala samapatti that I've heard about. So this post is more or less satisfying some slight craving to know . Apologies in advance.

Hi Nikolai,

The first thing I'd like to comment on is a misconception that has become widespread in the DhO community regarding the use of the word "formations," which is a translation of the Pali word "sankhara."

Daniel Ingram uses the word "formations" in MCTB and defines it in a particular way. The problem is that no one else defines it that way. In other words, Daniel has his own unique definition of formations that is completely different from that of the rest of the Buddhist world. So, if we read a passage by Mahasi Sayadaw in which he refers to formations, we must not apply Daniel's definition. We must find out what the more general, accepted definition is.

From Wikipedia:

"In the first (passive) sense saṅkhāra can refer to any compound form in the Universe whether a tree, a cloud, a human being, a thought or a molecule. All these are saṅkhāras...In the second (active) sense, saṅkhāra (or saṅkhāra-khandha) refers to the form-creating faculty of mind, often described as "volitional" or "intentional."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra

Also read Bikkhu Bodhi's exposition:

www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_43.html

Everything that manifests is a sankhara (formation). Formations aren't just noticed during 11th ñana, Knowledge of Equanimity. Everything you notice is a formation, all the time. During the 11th ñana, you have "equanimity regarding formations" for the 1st time.

When formations go away during phala (cessation/fruition), the entire manifest world goes away, including individual consciousness. If you can remember ANYTHING from that moment, is wasn't phala.

Thanks for the great question,

Kenneth

edit: spelling

Hi Kenneth,

Thanks for the clarification. I always had trouble seeing what Daniel described as sankharas. I ultimately let go of his definition when I found myself in high equanimity and went with the flow of being just equanimous with whatever physical sensation arose, having been immersed in the Goenka/.U Ba Khin method of awareness of sensations only.

So when Mahasi talks about this absorbtion that even sotapannas seem to be able to develop, he is talking about nirodha samapatti? But as you have said as well, only anagamis and arahats have access to this. So what exactly is the difference between nirodha samapatii and what Mahasi says is possible even for a 1st path winner? Is there a difference?

I ask with great curiosity due to my own experience as at least a stream enterer.

And do you have any experience of the unique absorbtion I mentioned in my post above?

First of all, Kenneth's clarification of the term "formation" (Pali: sankhara) is spot on. The two of us actually had a lengthy conversation about formations over the weekend. Good stuff.

Now, on to this state you're referring to. I believe I am familiar with this state of absorption, and I too thought it might be related to extended fruition knowledge as expounded in Practical Insight Meditation. But I have come to the same understanding as Kenneth conveys above, which is that Mahasi Sayadaw is referring to sustained cessation of all formations, and thus, all conscious experience.

What you're describing sounds more like what Aziz Kristof (aka Anadi) refers to as the state of Being. It is a way of absorbing one's consciousness into that part of us which does not move. To use Advaita-charged language, one's sense of I Am becomes absorbed in that which comes prior to consciousness or "Witnessing". This has puzzled me for quite some time. For, it feels as though my center of gravity (or C.O.G.) has temporarily shifted into non-abiding while manifest reality continues to arise and pass as it always does. It's an experience of being completely unhinged or unglued. I reach this state by bringing my attention no to the top of the head, but rather to the hara area just below and behind the navel. As you stated, when fruitions occur the state deepens and becomes ever more calm.

(continued below)

Just what exactly this state is from a Theravada/Vipassana point of view, I have no idea. I don't think there's any reason to try and note this state while it's happening, as any attempt to do vipassana is bound to suck you out of the state. At least that's my experience. Because it is a state of non-activity, getting wrapped up in activity moves your C.O.G. back in to the realm of activity. It's obvious that the state cannot be grasped, and is thus only attained by complete surrender. This may be why it deepens with cessation, since no resistance can arise when "you" are not there.

Does that sound anything like what you're experiencing?

~Jackson

"Just what exactly this state is from a Theravada/Vipassana point of view, I have no idea. I don't think there's any reason to try and note this state while it's happening, as any attempt to do vipassana is bound to suck you out of the state. At least that's my experience. Because it is a state of non-activity, getting wrapped up in activity moves your C.O.G. back in to the realm of activity. It's obvious that the state cannot be grasped, and is thus only attained by complete surrender. This may be why it deepens with cessation, since no resistance can arise when "you" are not there.

Does that sound anything like what you're experiencing?

~Jackson"

Yes ,yes and yes!!!! That is what it is like. I find it hard to explain myself. But you explained it better.

I was doing some research in the DhO, and I came across a thread on nirodha smapatti.

Kenneth had posted this.

"I should add that the second type of Mahasi cessation, accessed through the anicca (impermanence) door, involves vibrating rapidly and smoothly in and out of Nibbana. I would have to agree with Tarin that this one is an experience, as opposed to a non-experience. That's because while it's happening you are in cessation half the time and out of cessation half the time."

This is what it is like at times. But I am a little unsure if this is slightly different to the state I initially stated I experienced. But on further investigation, there is some very rapid activity on the crown as if i am going in and out of something. So maybe it is this type of cessation.

"Yes ,yes and yes!!!! That is what it is like. I find it hard to explain myself. But you explained it better."

Ha, ha. Cool

My experience with the state in question doesn't line up with a fruition via the impermanence door. I think it's something different. There is a distinctive resting quality that is unlike any entrance to or exit from fruition. However, my intuition tells me that whatever consciousness becomes absorbed in during this state must be related to the asankhata-dhatu, the unconditioned element, nibbana.

We know that nibbana has at least two meanings: the cessation/fruition at the end of each cycle, and the attainment of 4th Path/Arahantship. Perhaps this state we're talking about is yet another meaning of nibbana.

I've heard Shinzen Young describe a state where one is fully resting in the perspective of the Source or Zero, in which everything continues to arise whilst you remain unmoved. I think this might be what he's talking about, but can't be sure. Compared to Young, I am quite the neophyte yogi.

~Jackson

Yes, these are two different states. Just getting into them right now and they are definitely different. There is more of that resting quality you mentioned in the strange absorbtion where the mind seems stuck unmoving in one spot.

Whereas in the "wiggling in and out of something" experience feels like I am making a sustained effort to enter fruition and remain in it. But it doesn't do that, it goes back and forth into it rapidly. But it is interesting to observe how thoughts will be given the smallest fraction of a second to arise but are immediately cut off by entering the fruition repeatedly. It is similar in some ways to the other absorbtion because they are both related to fruition somehow. I can't explain it yet. I'm reviewin all this at the moment.

Ok, so this absorbtion we are discussing seems not to be like to the other type of cessation just mentioned. It is a feeling of resting and calm and no effort is involved at all in being in it. When I make the resolution to stay in the anicca fruition the mind wiggles in and out of fruition. And it feels like I need to sustain effort slightly for a few seconds and then the mind settles into this experience without problem. The mind gets even more blank the longer this experience is maintained.
Just seeing what the anatta fruition is like. Whereas in the anicca fruition there was a slightly wiggling in and out feeling at the crown, it is now at the third eye, same wiggling feeling. When I do it with the dukkha fruition it gets weird. My breath stops and I feel pulled upwards and back. I can't hold onto it for more than a few seconds. I'll see if I can later.

One more thing I would like to mention. While I was travelling on a plane from Australia to Chile a couple of days ago. i began listening to Kenneth's Dharma discussion on the 20 strata of mind. I followed him along as he entered and explained each strata. When he got to the pureland jhanas, I discovered that I have access to them as well. They corresponded with each of his discriptions. Although he didn't mention anything about the 5th.

This all happened after I finally got a big fruition of sorts on the plane after a number of days without a cycle completing with one. I am of course doubting what stage I am in and whether or not I do have access to the 5 pure abodes but , damn they are much more supramundane or rather have a wow factor unlike the 8 other jhanas. I really like the 5th with it just being this "knowing" being aware of knowing and the subtlest of blissful vibrations I have ever felt on the body.

Anyway, it is now my 1st choice jhana to dwell in.

"When (Kenneth) got to the pureland jhanas, I discovered that I have access to them as well. They corresponded with each of his discriptions. Although he didn't mention anything about the 5th."-NSH

Hi Nikolai,

I briefly describe the 5th Pureland jhana (20th stratum of mind) beginning at about the 18:21 mark of part two of the "20 strata of mind described" talk:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Dharma+Talks

I also have included a brief description of it on the Flash graphic of the 20 strata:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/20+Major+Strata+of+Mind

I urge you to be very patient in coming to any conclusions about your own practice because as you know the ability to access the Pureland jhanas is a de facto claim of having attained the 3rd Path of Enlightenment. And while we are most certainly not proponents of the mushroom culture on this forum, we do take such claims very seriously. As you are still sorting out the various states and experiences, leave open the possibility that what you are calling the Pureland territory is something else. Just to put it into context, statistically speaking, it's unlikely that you have correctly diagnosed yourself because in my experience access to all 5 Pureland jhanas is considerably rarer even than arahatship. It takes most people years and decades of dedicated practice to be able to access and identify these subtle realms.

If you like, I'll be happy to work more closely with you as you continue to develop and make sense of this fascinating process.

Warm regards,

Kenneth

Hi Kenneth,
Yeh, you are right. I really don't know what I am accessing after the 8. It is something but I wont jump to conclusions. I am just kind of stunned by some of the things I seemed to be accessing, I am maybe looking for names to put on them. I am not trying to pull anyone's leg, it's just that everything, all this access to the 8 jhanas and learning to get fruitions so quickly. I don't know where it's all coming from but it feels almost too easy. I am not bragging, this is really my situation. I'll hold back a bit with my trying to put words to my experiences as I m probably jumping the gun. I would be very grateful to have some guidance.

Sounds great, Nikolai. It will be great fun to work with such an enthusiastic and apparently talented yogi. We can dedicate a thread here on the forum to our interaction if you like.

Kenneth

Actually Kenneth, that would be perfect. A part of me knows progress will happen by itself and I could go it alone but then there is the other part of me that wants explanations and guidance. So I would be so happy to have that interaction. I only got 1st path on the 1st of January. So there is so much new territory in front of me. I live in Chile, South America and this and the DhO are the only places I can talk about this stuff.

Correction ''Nirodha samapatti can only be access by an Arahath , not an anagami nor others.

Sez who?

"14. Nirodha Samapatti -

An Anagami or an Arahat, who has developed the rupa and arupa jhanas, could, by will-power, temporarily arrest the ordinary flow of consciousness even for seven days continuously. When one attains this state, all mental activities cease, although there exist heat and life devoid of any breathing. The difference between a corpse and one in this state, is that the latter possesses life. Books state too that his body cannot be harmed. The attainment of such an ecstatic state is known as nirodha samapatti. Nirodha means cessation, and samapatti is attainment.

Immediately prior to the attainment of this state he experiences for two moments the fourth arupa jhana (state of neither perception nor non-perception). The flow of consciousness then ceases until he emerges therefrom as determined by him. As a rule he remains in this state for about a week. Motionless he abides in this ecstasy. Books relate an incident of a Pacceka Buddha whose body was set fire to while in this state. But he was not affected thereby.

Now when he emerges from this state the first thought-moment to arise is an Anagami Fruit-consciousness in the case of an Anagami, or an Arahat Fruit-consciousness in the case of an Arahat. Thereafter the stream of consciousness subsides into bhavanga."

www.budsas.org/ebud/abhisgho/abhis04.htm