Jackson's Essay on 20 Strata of Mind and Jhanic Arc

Jackson Wishire has written an excellent essay on the 20 Major Strata of Mind and the Jhanic Arc:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/The+...d+and+the+Jhanic+Arc

Highly recommended reading.

Kenneth

I think this is a good starting model, but there is much more to be said that lends complexity to this simplicity.

For instance:

* As the first 4 vipassana jhanas and the ñanas are describing aspects of similar or perhaps fundamentally the same territory, depending on how you want to slice it, that makes for some redundancy of the model.
* I think that the sub-jhanas and sub-ñanas make it much more complex. For instance, I think that there is a 11.1 to 11.8 (using ñana.subjhana terminology) and then back down to the High Equanimity Launching Area (to be described shortly). In this way, I think that a person in Equanimity (11th ñana), goes through many more sub-phases of development of that stage, reflecting inherently the perspectives and phase qualities of the 8 jhanas just in that stage, and even these can be broken down if one wants to get picky and really map-geeky.
*I think that it is worth describing some branching off that can occur. For instance, an anagami might rise up to 8th jhana, leave it to the High Equanimity, Post-8th jhana Launching Point, whatever that it, as it is not quite a jhana, but it is different for having just been in the 8th jhana, and then from there one can to straight to a Fruition, can go straight to Nirodha Samapatti, can go up to Pure Land Jhanas, or can to other things, such as The Witness or other complex, manipulatable and malleable experiences.
*In that same vein: the experiences that one may have up in that territory are very easily manipulated. One can set a model for interesting turf and just make it happen and get good at making those states happen just by having strong concentration, expectation, and intention (standard Magickal factors).
*Next, the arc is variable. I personally find that all sorts of things can happen that are variations on that theme, the least likely of which is the up and down described here.

For instance, post Fruition a number of things can happen: I can go back to the A&P after a brief bliss wave, thus cycling again in the standard fashion. I can ride the afterglow up to interesting jhanic territory. I can stay in the territory that I got the Fruition in and get more of them, each time not going back down to A&P territory and also not going into jhana. I can use that territory to get back to high jhanas and to Pure Land territory and even back to the Launching Point for things like NS. Which happens depends on lots of factors and why some intentions and directions to the thing happen at various times or days or weeks is not always clear.

Thus, I think that the 20 strata are missing a lot of nuance, branching options, various other experiences, and the benefits of the sub-jhana and sub-ñana maps, and thus represent only one of many models that may be beneficial depending on the circumstances, the practitioner, and what they are dealing with at that time.

There are few days I regret not having written the ultra-geeky, sub-sub-sub-ñana-jhana map book that I briefly considered doing with all the branching options, aspects, complexities, easter-egg functionality and variations, but this is one of those rare days.

There are other things that simply don't fit into the standard classification systems well even if one is using a very complex one, such as the Deep Slow Opiate-like Goo-like state that some, but not all, will drop down into during cycles in A&P territory: it is clearly something different, a very different way of perceiving the world, but to simply say it is part of the 4th ñana really feels lacking to those who have gotten into it. There are many other possible examples like this one.

Thus, while we can offer some schemes of classifying all this stuff, it is not as easy, straightforward or simple as any of the maps make it out to be, and range of presentation is wide. Yes, there are basic overriding themes and aspects to how most people present and progress, but to say there are simply 20 strata is really missing a lot that is obvious, and to say that it follows that sort of simplistic art pattern as its natural progression is also missing much that is not at all that curvilinear or regular or predictable except for the practitioner that felt they had to fit their practice to a model and managed to force it into that box, or just happen to have a practice that ended up there for whatever reason and decided that must be the last word on the thing.

"Yes, there are basic overriding themes and aspects to how most people present and progress, but to say there are simply 20 strata is really missing a lot that is obvious, and to say that it follows that sort of simplistic art pattern as its natural progression is also missing much that is not at all that curvilinear or regular or predictable except for the practitioner that felt they had to fit their practice to a model and managed to force it into that box, or just happen to have a practice that ended up there for whatever reason and decided that must be the last word on the thing."

Hey Daniel,

Thanks for chiming in with some comments. I'm about to hit the sack, so I'll save any in depth comments for later.

I think the important thing to consider when approaching this particular Map/Model is it describes the 20 "Major" strata of mind. Sure, one's experience of this territory can be charted in a more nuanced way at some levels. But at some point you have to put the Ginsu knives down and stop chopping up the territory, which can make things unnecessarily complex for those who just need something to work with in order to wake up.

Also, I'm surprised to hear you suggest that the territory above 8th jhana would somehow NOT follow a natural progression, as I'm sure you'd agree that, say, the eight jhanas arise in succession. Do they not? It's true that the 8th jhana may work as a sort of "launching pad" for certain states or events that one can intend to occur, but that doesn't negate the fact that there may in fact be (as my repeated, effortless experience suggests) five additional jhanas that arise in a similar fashion to anyone who has access to them. I obviously hold this view, but I wouldn't if it wasn't something I experience directly when I practice.

Anyways, lots more to say. I'll chime back in when my batteries have recharged.

~Jackson

"Thus, I think that the 20 strata are missing a lot of nuance, branching options, various other experiences..."

I woke up in a paranoid state of mind, so I'm probably projecting that this thread could turn into a messy "baby out with the bathwater" discussion. One thing I liked about Jackson's essay is that it better characterized the 20 strata as one possible pattern that arises and apparently naturally so, but also provided some context for other patterns that can arise (Review A, Review B, the compound effect)... This sort of opens the door to including a lot more complexity to the real world application of the 20 strata idea.

Just this morning I was reading through "Spiritual Materialism" where Trungpa is talking about how the God Realm (which I can now understand as concentration states: boundless space, consciousness, nothing, neither perception/not perception...) is still the egoic state and have to be left behind, so to speak... It gave me a foreshadowing of the desire to "own" these states once experienced (useful lesson for my own lower-level practice) and how some kind of practice that sees through them is part of the Path.

My sense is if the 20 strata model lends itself to this kind of seeing through, great... but if the simplist version of this model (without the caveats and other options) it becomes a mold for reality to be forced into, maybe not so good.

So this is notes from the peanut gallery... without any first hand knowledge of the terrain I'm commenting on. Now back to the paranoia...

Daniel's sub-sub-sub jhana book will have a huge audience if he ever writes it

"One thing I liked about Jackson's essay is that it better characterized the 20 strata as one possible pattern that arises and apparently naturally so, but also provided some context for other patterns that can arise (Review A, Review B, the compound effect)... This sort of opens the door to including a lot more complexity to the real world application of the 20 strata idea...

My sense is if the 20 strata model lends itself to this kind of seeing through, great... but if the simplist version of this model (without the caveats and other options) it becomes a mold for reality to be forced into, maybe not so good."

Hi beta,

Yes, the 20 Major Strata are one possible pattern that arises naturally, particularly with the practice described in the essay - the jhanic arc. In know way would I ever suggest that it's the only way one could every possibly experience and categorize reality. The map is not the territory. However, having a good map (the 20 Major Strata) and a compatible vehicle (the jhanic arc) is and excellent way to get to know the territory intimately from the perspective it provides. Traveling this territory is much like moving at a steady pace - slow enough to know where you are with some detail, but not so slow that one will have time to pick up every little pebble on the path, weigh it, snap a picture of it, take notes on it, put it back and move on to the next pebble... so to speak.

So, if one of the ways to make progress on the developmental path is to objectify and thoroughly penetrate the mind as it presents itself to one's experience (which is hard to refute, at least from the Theravada point of view), than I don't see how anyone could go wrong with this practice - if done correctly.

Thanks for your comment!

~Jackson

Hi Daniel. Below are some of your quotes, each followed by a brief response.

"As the first 4 vipassana jhanas and the ñanas are describing aspects of similar or perhaps fundamentally the same territory, depending on how you want to slice it, that makes for some redundancy of the model."

- Not sure why this is a problem. If the four "vipssana" jhanas, the first four samatha jhanas, and the eleven ñanas cover the same territory over all, we still have eleven Major strata below fifth samatha jhana.

"In that same vein: the experiences that one may have up in that territory are very easily manipulated. One can set a model for interesting turf and just make it happen and get good at making those states happen just by having strong concentration, expectation, and intention (standard Magickal factors)."

- Right. One may manipulate their experience at variable points, especially if they are very highly concentrated. But again, the point of this practice is to observe what happens when we STOP manipulating. The results depend upon the particular yogi's willingness and ability to allow the stages to arise while simply paying attention. No pushing, striving, or manipulating. If you're manipulating, you're not doing this practice, and will more than likely not see what we're talking about.

(continued below)

(continued from above)

"For instance, post Fruition a number of things can happen: I can go back to the A&P after a brief bliss wave, thus cycling again in the standard fashion. I can ride the afterglow up to interesting jhanic territory. I can stay in the territory that I got the Fruition in and get more of them, each time not going back down to A&P territory and also not going into jhana. I can use that territory to get back to high jhanas and to Pure Land territory and even back to the Launching Point for things like NS. Which happens depends on lots of factors and why some intentions and directions to the thing happen at various times or days or weeks is not always clear."

- Again, yes, you can "do" all kinds of things from that launching point. In my experience, when I don't "do" anything but pay attention, either Review Phase A ( the ñanas up to fruition and back around) or Review Phase B (up and down jhanas 1-13). That is, unless I'm working on another full Progress of Insight cycle (more on that below)...

(continued below)

(continued from above)

"Thus, I think that the 20 strata are missing a lot of nuance, branching options, various other experiences, and the benefits of the sub-jhana and sub-ñana maps, and thus represent only one of many models that may be beneficial depending on the circumstances, the practitioner, and what they are dealing with at that time."

- I think you're right that this model is only beneficial at particular stages of practice. For me, the jhanic arc has a lot less relevance when I plop into a brand new Progress of Insight cycle. I cycling quickly through all these stages doesn't really happen when I'm stuck in a particular ñana that needs to be dealt with. But once the cycle is completed, and Review sets in, my experience shows that things just follow these natural "rest stops", or rather "scenic points" along the path without my having to do anything. As clearly stated in the article, when we're talking jhanic arc, we're talking review.

(continued below)

"Yes, there are basic overriding themes and aspects to how most people present and progress, but to say there are simply 20 strata is really missing a lot that is obvious, and to say that it follows that sort of simplistic art pattern as its natural progression is also missing much that is not at all that curvilinear or regular or predictable except for the practitioner that felt they had to fit their practice to a model and managed to force it into that box, or just happen to have a practice that ended up there for whatever reason and decided that must be the last word on the thing."

- You make is sound like I'm saying that there are only 20 possible experiences one can have in meditation. That's ridiculous. I'm a student of perspectives. My article describes how the turf looks from a particular perspective, combined specifically with a particular practice, and that tends to happen at a particular point in the yogi's development. It's not intended to be the "BE ALL, END ALL, ONE GREAT MAP OF CONSCIOUSNESS!" Though, I'm not suggesting that it's "merely" just one perspective, as it seems to be (in my experience) highly accurate and predictable - just as much as the Progress of Insight contains themes that are highly predictable, consistent, and generally helpful for those who doing a particular practice at a particular time of their development.

~Jackson

Oh, yes, I agree on the first 8, with some additions and complexities, but beyond that it gets pretty wide and not straightforward.

For instance, just a few weeks ago when trying to sleep for a few hours after a staff meeting and before a long shift, I lay down and tried to sleep on a hard ER stretcher, and, finding that about as difficult as I always do, I decided to do some jhana practice.

So, I rise up to 8, come out, rise a bit higher, and then there was this strange, thick and strong numbness that mimicked exactly the feeling of numbness one gets from novocaine or similar drugs that began in my legs and so I expanded it out to fill my whole body. It was not a formless realm, nothing like equanimity, certainly not particularly pleasant or something one would like to cultivate a lot unless one was in pain, I guess, so I don't think of it as a pureland realm, and I had never run into that before.

New strata? Something else? The jury is out on what to call that and a number of other strange things that can occur off the launching point space post 8th, and I don't think everything that can happen off that spot has been described, or, if it has, I am not aware of it.

Again, I would caution against these:

1) The "only 5 strata beyond 8th jhana, have a nice day" mentality. I don't think so. It is more complex than that. I myself have been fascinated by simple, this is the final answer models.
2) The fixed, natural curvilinear sinusoidal motion implied by the jhanic arc model and the flash diagram: it is not like that for many, and is much more variable and interesting.
3) Beware of scripting: at this level, we can to some degree see what we want to see: powerful concentration, intention, expectation and pre-programming can be powerful conditions for experiences showing up. I think that the notion there are those limits to the thing is naive and just wrong.

Further, as the old texts say, all that stuff, post 4th, is actually just considered to be extensions and permutations of the 4th jhana, with the 4th being very flexible, moldable, and many-fasceted.

I am not saying any one model is right or wrong particularly, and there are obviously times for greater complexity for the technical, geeky, explorer who wants more options and less limits, as well as times to dumb it down to something pat and straight like that, but a model should be able to describe and predict, and that model easily fails on both counts to describe various aspects of the options and experiences that people can run into.

"2) The fixed, natural curvilinear sinusoidal motion implied by the jhanic arc model and the flash diagram: it is not like that for many, and is much more variable and interesting."

OK, I see what you're saying here. Yes, the stages moves from one to the other until one reaches their peak. Then, they reverse. Referring to this as an "arc" is obviously just a way to describe this reality. The experiential changes between states sometimes feel like moving up, or expanding outward, or dropping down, or are categorized by shifts in the focus of energy (not intentional, mind you).

So yeah, it's only "figuratively" like walking up hill and back down. It's a simple, useful way to describe the experience.

~Jackson

Hi Daniel,

I think Jackson did a great job of addressing your concerns. Generally speaking, I find simplicity to be a more effective teaching aid than complexity. Also, remember, there isn't very much here that's new. All I've done is synthesize three Buddhist maps in a way that is consistent with my experience and the experience of other advanced practitioners with whom I've discussed this. Granted, some people don't experience their minds as having a stratified structure, but they tend to be either people whose formal training has explicitly negated structure, e.g., Zen adepts, or people who don't yet have enough experience with these states to see them clearly.

The fact that the mind has a stratified structure in no way negates the fact that contained within that structure are infinite possibilities of experience or that various individuals will experience and describe the strata and concomitant experiences in their own unique ways. Nonetheless, the structure remains. The 20 strata of mind map is not meant to be the only way to divide up the territory. The number twenty is simply the natural consequence of synthesizing the Theravada maps of the ñanas, material and immaterial jhanas, and Pure Abodes.

In working with students both individually and collectively, I find that a clear conceptual understanding of the stratified nature of the mind is a great support to progress. Always leaving open the possibility that there are even more strata of mind beyond the twenty, or that we can find an even simpler and more elegant model by which to navigate the territory, I consider the 20 strata of mind map to be a very useful tool.

Best,

Kenneth

Honestly, I've never taken Kenneth's 20 strate of mind model as deterministic. It's pretty obvious when you get into practice at this level that things are almost infintely variable. If you do the math of even half the 20 strata it's compelling, as 10 factorial brings you over 3.5 million possibilities. But that's not really the point. I have always believed the theme, as develeoped by Kenneth and elucidated here by Jackson, to be that there is a road map for reasonable folks to use to see the path of their practice, should tthey choose to. Simple. Nothing complicated, nothing to really disagree with or argue about.

EDIT:

I also want to make a comment about the difference betwen communicating with students, especially beginning students, and modeling the dharma at a level that appears to be more like engineering than spirituality. Daniel, I give you great props and huzzas. Your book is amazing and it gave me great hope and brought me to a far, far richer practice than I had before I read it. That said, you may want to consider that yours is not the only possible way to openly and honestly communicate to folks about this path. I find that beginners in particular struggle with your material, just as I did, as valuable as it is, becauase they tend to believe they need to, or will, have exactly your experiences, as documented in MCTB. Personally, I don't believe that's likely if it is even possible. Let a thousand flowers bloom, I say.

JMHO, so take it for what it's worth to you.

Jackson, thanks for the excellent article and responses.
The clarification or emphasizing of how to do this practice I think will assist me.
1- Don't manipulate the session.
2 -Since I am just noticing, treat 20 Strata as a guide, because whether or not I experience 20 strata in the manner described does not change the practice.

" also want to make a comment about the difference betwen communicating with students, especially beginning students, and modeling the dharma at a level that appears to be more like engineering than spirituality. Daniel, I give you great props and huzzas. Your book is amazing and it gave me great hope and brought me to a far, far richer practice than I had before I read it. That said, you may want to consider that yours is not the only possible way to openly and honestly communicate to folks about this path. I find that beginners in particular struggle with your material, just as I did, as valuable as it is, becauase they tend to believe they need to, or will, have exactly your experiences, as documented in MCTB. Personally, I don't believe that's likely if it is even possible. Let a thousand flowers bloom, I say.

"

Great edit.

Let a thousand flowers bloom; that is so good!

"Oh, yes, I agree on the first 8, with some additions and complexities, but beyond that it gets pretty wide and not straightforward."-Daniel

My observation is that meditative experience starts out a chaotic jumble and tends toward ever more simplicity and order over time. I see this in my students as well. It's almost universal for beginning meditators to be skeptical that there is any kind of order to the mind at all. Over time, the shapes emerge from the mist. At some point, often after 1st Path, a yogi is likely to say, "Wow, there really are 4 jhanas. I only half believed it before, but now it's plain as day." That same yogi, however, may not be able to see the four immaterial jhanas (jhanas 5- clearly. It takes more time and practice for that yogi to say, "Wow, there really are four immaterial jhanas. I only half believed you before, but now it's plain as day. What's more, the 8 jhanas that I now have access to arise in invariable order if I don't manipulate my experience." But that same yogi may not yet see the Pure Land jhanas clearly. The mind, above the level of the first 8 jhanas, is a chaotic jumble, complex and mysterious. Over time, with practice, that yogi is likely to say, "Wow, there really are 5 Pure Land (suddhavasa) jhanas! I only half believed it before. But now it's plain as day." Still, it may not be entirely clear to this yogi that there is a naturally occurring arc whereby the jhanas arise in ascending order, peak at the highest stratum of mind available to that yogi, then descend in reverse order. This is one of the hardest things to see, because we tune out on the descent. With time and practice, this too becomes clear. The trend from a less orderly to a more orderly experience of one's own mind has been in place since the beginning. It continues. Infinite possibilities for experience remain, but harmony and simplicity rule the day.

Kenneth

"Infinite possibilities for experience remain, but harmony and simplicity rule the day."

That has certainly been my experience, Kenneth. Again, while it is tempting to use an engineering approach to explain and then to teach the dharma, it can lead to confusion and, after a certain point in practice, it's potentially misleading. Truth, The Truth, is rather simple and very clean. We can deny that fact if we want but Truth doesn't much care about what we want and don't want. It just IS.

Kenneth,

Could you please elaborate on the notion of a compounded jhana?

"Kenneth,

Could you please elaborate on the notion of a compounded jhana? "

Hey Nikolai,

Kenneth touched on this in comment #24 of the thread "Jhana and Nana"...

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/33...set=20&maxResults=20

[quoted below for convenience]

Oct 9 2009, 7:08 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 9 2009, 7:15 PM EDT
Hi Umberto,

Thanks for posting the link to Daniel's "Compound Jhana" article:

www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharm...le=Compound%20jhanas

I think it's a totally cool idea. But then again, I'm biased. The concept of "natural and compound jhana" is one that I came up with about three weeks ago and told Daniel about in a telephone conversation. (I just emailed him, asking him to add a citation to his essay.)

Daniel was really excited about the idea and urged me to write about it and post it right away, before I forgot about it. I did write a paragraph that night, but haven't fleshed it out yet:

Building Blocks and Scripts: Natural and Compound Jhana

The mind has an invariable structure. The mind is infinitely scriptable. Which is true? Both are true. The mind is composed of a series of strata that can be seen to arise in an invariable sequence, like a rainbow. But the strata, which can be thought of as building blocks, can be mixed and matched in any combination to form a kind of jhana soup. When the jhanas are allowed to arise in order, without any effort on the part of the meditator but to observe, they can be thought of as 'natural jhana.' When various building blocks are arranged according to a recipe to deliberately conjure up an experience, the result could be called 'compound jhana.' -Kenneth Folk, September 13, 2009

...

I Hope this helps.

Excellent! Thanks Jackson. Very helpful indeed! Ta!

Thank you cmarti, Kenneth, and others willing to talk of simplicity. I'm a toddler in this arena, barely able to keep watching my breath for 30 minutes, and am amazed at the states you describe. So often the suffering of our fellow humans, and the people I love, leaves me incapacitated, the poster child for the "freeze" part of fight, flight, freeze. You are all in the same world I am, in a sense, but experience it, have an awareness of it, can "be" in it so radically differently - I can see why in the mythology that at first the Buddha wasn't going to teach his fellow humans at all - how many would really "get it"? Those of you mapping the mind in such complexity leave me speechless, but appreciative that you are willing to work with people so far from where you are. What keeps bringing me back is Kenneth's simple statement, "the happiness that does not depend on conditions." I naively took the Boddhisattva vow years ago, not realizing how challenging it would be just to get myself to the "happiness independent of conditions" let alone able to help others attain that state. Again, I love the discussions, they stop me in my tracks, but it is simplicity that gives me some small hope of progress on the path. I bow to each of you, deeply, and in humble appreciation.