Responses to How to Get Enlightened

This is a place for questions and comments about my essay, "How to Get Enlightened."

May you awaken now,

Kenneth

Excellent piece, Kenneth!

Would you be able to say more about the difference between points #6 and #7? I understand the difference in approach, but is there a difference in realization? The reason I ask is that Ramana Maharshi (according to the teachings documented in the book "Be As You Are") seemed to teach that both surrender and Self-enquiry were practices that lead to the same realization. In the preface to the chapter on Surrender, the editor David Godman writes:

"Sri Ramana often equated the practices of surrender and enquiry by saying that they were different names for the same process or that they were the only two effective means by which Self-realization could be achieved. This is quite consistent with his view that any practice which involved awareness of the 'I'-thought was a valid and direct route to the Self, whereas all practice which didn't were not."

So, it would seem that either practice would lead to the dissolution of the 'I'-thought, which results in dwelling as pure 'I', or Self, or sat-chit-ananda. Or am I missing something...

Again, great piece! Thank you for writing it.

~Jackson

EDIT: for clarity.

it seems like points five and six are a gradual approach to point seven....
I'm not sure, cause I don't think I have any personal experience of points five and six to speak of-- unless I do but see it differently-- but it sounds like in 5 and 6 there is a progressively subtler method, and could have lots of subtle experiences, while point seven really has no method, if i am understanding what is meant by the term "surrender" correctly, and is not a specifiable experience, not even of a very subtle "subjectivity-essence". In other words, no matter how far you go with self-inquiry, you still have to surrender the inquiry at some point and just Be As You Are-- which of course one could do at any time, from within any state-- right?

Yes, Jake, number seven can be accessed at any time, but that's like saying anyone can run a four minute mile at any time. Is it possible? Sure. But how likely is it? It took a lot of work, tons and tons of work, for me just to figure out what that term "surrender" really means, let alone to figure out just what it is that must be surrendered (steps one through six). So I think that's the answer to Jackson's question, at least for me. Number six is that last itty bitty subtle shadow of an object that must be obectified before.... BAM!

Lights on.

I don't think I am exaggerating my thoughts by saying, simple though it may be, this page is the best on the site in conveying the essence of the path. Although I would say from experience surrender just seems to happen without a "trying to surrender".
We can focus to the degree we wish on the detail or that which works best individually, but here we have enough detail whereby one only need recognize the object or objects of awareness. I cannot help but love the simplicity of what is written here, like poetic verse.
Now there is a reason for great concentration and we can practice at the same time!

Thanks for this Kenneth.

"This is a place for questions and comments about my essay, "How to Get Enlightened."

May you awaken now,

Kenneth"

Thank you yet again, Kenneth.

Tears of joy, Kenneth. Thank you!

"
Yes, Jake, number seven can be accessed at any time, but that's like saying anyone can run a four minute mile at any time. "

no it's not, Chris, but if you just stuck to saying that's how it was for you, that'd be a different thing altogether!
for a certain personality type, it's easier to just take a load off, kick back and BE after they've really "accomplished" something. Then they can give themselves permission to just let go... some folks on the other hand are naturally quite lazy, like me! (and lucky, maybe...)

Hi Kenneth,
That's a highly plausible way to extend satipatthana to include 2nd and 3rd gear. It's the first time I can actually see this stuff fitting together.

And just when I thought I'd got over obsessive map-making, too! I'm already beginning to wonder how to extend some of the other little maps of the seven sets in this way.

Thanks, Kenneth!

Cheers,
Florian

"and lucky, maybe..."

You are really lucky to be enlightened without going through the dark nights. The way I see it, is dark nights is inevitable as reported by posters here. I still cringe when I recall what I've gone through.

I believe a clear map can help reduce the suffering and misconception of what is going on as the yogis progress forward.

I would like to add perhaps a mention of jhanna cultivation might be useful. Thanks to the discussion here I've started getting a handle on how to enter the jhannas and see its various benefits.

"... if you just stuck to saying that's how it was for you, that'd be a different thing altogether!"

Jake, I know that sometimes a human being just spontaneously awakens. That's very, very rare. Most of us, me included, have to work very hard at it. Are you disagreeing with that? You seem to be claiming to be one of those "very lucky" ones, yes? I guess your post confused this poor fool.

"That's a highly plausible way to extend satipatthana to include 2nd and 3rd gear. It's the first time I can actually see this stuff fitting together."-monkeymind

I'm glad this model makes sense to you, Florian. I'm really just describing my own experience. Notice how this set of practices lines up with The Strawman Model of Awakening that AugustLeo and I posted:

bit.ly/bkF6Ta

Especially notice the transition between the 4th and 5th perspectives of consciousness. This is the transition between 1st and 2nd Gear. The 5th PoC is the first place where the yogi is able to turn the light of attention around and reveal the subject, which has hitherto been a mystery. This is the great dividing line between "what" practices like satipatthana/vipassana and "who" practices like Advaita Vedanta.

Kenneth

The more I read this commentary from Kenneth and the work that Kenneth and Michael (AugustLeo) have done here together the more I'm convinced that this is a rare, wonderful and **original** contribution to the theory of mind.

Congrats to you guys!

"So, it would seem that either practice would lead to the dissolution of the 'I'-thought, which results in dwelling as pure 'I', or Self, or sat-chit-ananda."-awouldbehipster

Hi Jackson,

All of what you are referring to is within the realm of the 6th practice listed in the How to Get Enlightened essay. The 7th practice leads beyond sat-chit-ananda to pure Awareness. "I" can't go there as it is, in its original form, prior to the arising of "I". However, the integration of Awareness and the dependently arising subjects and objects within and not other than Awareness is a perspective of consciousness and a developmental stage. AugustLeo and I refer to it as the 6th Perspective of Consciousness (no-dog goes to dog park) in the Strawman Model of Awakening.

bit.ly/bkF6Ta

"The more I read this commentary from Kenneth and the work that Kenneth and Michael (AugustLeo) have done here together the more I'm convinced that this is a rare, wonderful and **original** contribution to the theory of mind.
]"

I just like to bring out other teachings that I find echo Kenneth wonderful gears. THe first similarities is from a retreat talk by Chan master Nan Huai Chin. I have pondered a lot what he means since reading his work some time ago (his being my favourite books to re-read). He broke down the steps as: seeing the truth, doing the cultivation, and carrying out vows.

I see the parallel as getting stream entry in the first step, from there he said then that is when you can really do proper cultivation, and at the same time helping other sentient beings as this is one of the Mahayana vows.


His talk has been translated to English in two books (sadly unavailable directly from amazon)

Working Toward Enlightenment: The Cultivation of Practice
To Realize Enlightenment: Practice of the Cultivation Path. The chinese version in one volume is more readily available from Chinese bookstore btw

www.amazon.com/Realize-Enlightenment-Pra...id=1267958848&sr=1-1

I also similarities from the zen sayings (paraphrasing): "Before, mountain is mountain. then mountain is not mountain. later, mountain is mountain"

Thanks, jin..lin. What I like about Kenneth's and Michael's material is that it is compatible with so much existing material in Buddhist literature. But it's different in that it represents a unique western view,and a fusion of what are otherwise often disparate ways view the mind's structure and its awakening.

"Second Gear:
6) Objectify the subtle, non-local sense of knowing that arises along with each thing that is known. If this knowing is itself known, it is not "I". To notice this subtle level of being is sat-chit-ananda (being-consciousness-bliss).

Third Gear:
7) Surrender entirely. There is Awareness, even when you are no longer present."


Kenneth, thank you for this essay! My understanding of steps 1-4 is clear, but I am stuck on point #6. How do you objectify the non-local sense of knowing if it's non-local?

As for point #7, does surrender mean giving up trying to manipulate one's experience through getting or avoiding or even conceptualizing?

Thanks,

Tina

"

Jake, I know that sometimes a human being just spontaneously awakens. That's very, very rare. Most of us, me included, have to work very hard at it. Are you disagreeing with that? You seem to be claiming to be one of those "very lucky" ones, yes? I guess your post confused this poor fool.

"

Oops, no for clarity's and posterity's sake, I'll just correct your odd misperception again: while you seem to use the word "awakening" to refer to some be all and end all event, which has happened to you, I do not. Buddha nature is here now, period. Nothing need be done to be awake. Every experience of recognition and confusion is equally proof of naked awareness. That means that the most lofty and convincing experiences of recognition are exactly equal with the most miserable experiences of samsara insofar as each momentary experience has the exact same nature-quality, or "isness", which is the same "isness" as Awareness. The hard work to which you refer does happen, in some sense, but simply put it has to happen In Your Life, your actual life, which of course includes the cushion and all your developmental achievements thereon. The achievemnts are not what makes possible resting as natural wakefulness, the innate wakefullness of buddhanature is what makes possible our confusion stupidity sublimity and attainments, and is equally present in them all. What I'm interested in, again, is not ways to "access" what I am, but wisdom in its daily expression through body speech and mind in my ordinary life. What I am is sometimes self-clear and sometimes not, and I am OK with that and feel no need to "conquer" awareness and be resting as that 24/7-- because I am confident that I am that whether self-clear or not, and that confidence- and my skill at living in tune with it- is really the barometer of my "practice".

Jake, if that's what you are about, if that's what practice means to you, then you have to go with it .

Peace

um, thanks for your support, Chris! Sorry if "my practice" disappoints or offends you; I'm not quite sure what your motivation is when you respond to me on these threads. My initial post on this thread was merely a chiming in with a different twist on jackson's thoughtful question, basically saying, yes good question, I wonder something along those lines too, and this is how I would phrase that wonder and my own instinctual sense of the matter.
Basically for me the question is interesting because such different schools, holding such different views, as Chan, Advaita, and Dzogchen all do seem to point to something very similar which they refer to as our True Nature, natural state, sahaj, etc, though they all have different ways of framing the approach to it, the meaning of it, and it's relation to life in general or humanness, and thus of speaking, teaching, and practicing in relation to it.
Interesting stuff!

Jake, I've not made and will not make any judgements in regard to your practice. We all have to follow our heart when it comes to this stuff, so go for it! That's what I do.

"
Jake, I've not made and will not make any judgements in regard to your practice. We all have to follow our heart when it comes to this stuff, so go for it! That's what I do.

"

I'm glad to hear it chris! I make numerous judgements of myself and others all the time, and they sure can be tricky devils. Sometimes I meet folks who remind me of myself, even while seeming to be very different from me at the same time. Frankly, you are one of those people!
I just hope that our shadow-boxing can leave room for us to participate on these threads without having to constantly comment on each others' posts, as that could be distracting. Or maybe we could have a Jake and Chris Dialogue Thread, where we explore the ways in which our respective orientations to life and practice converge, compliment, differ, amplify, clash, teach, learn, etc. with/from each other!

"Or maybe we could have a Jake and Chris Dialogue Thread, where we explore the ways in which our respective orientations to life and practice converge, compliment, differ, amplify, clash, teach, learn, etc. with/from each other!"-Jake

Jake, I like what you said in the quote above, but that isn't what I see happening. I see you taking a kind of self-satisfied and condescending attitude toward the other posters that would be annoying in any circumstance, but is especially so given that you don't seem to be able to evaluate your own level of understanding relative to the people with whom you are speaking. Let me spell it out. You are a beginner. You may not behave like an authority on this forum. If I allow beginners to masquerade as experts, it devalues the teachings I offer here. That is not acceptable given the mission of this site, which is to help others awaken. If you want to continue to participate here, you must do so within the culture of this community, which means no more fatuous posturing.

Kenneth

I'm going to lock this thread to prevent it spinning out of control into a flame war. If Jake or anyone else would like to discuss this, I've created a new thread in the "off-topic" section where we can do that:

bit.ly/bBS78l