A question for the enlightened ones ...

Hi guys, I have a sincere question. I've been studying spirituality and meditating for many years. Recently due to a developing interest in Zen and Advaita teachings I've become more attune to the stateless state, that which is here despite the experiences or the arguments that can obscure it.

Its been quite puzzling for me as the mind still has the tendency to try to describe and introduce new complexities constantly.

My question is along the lines of inquiring whether or not the abiding and the deepening of this is enlightenment. And if so what is all the talk and obsession about paths, maps, jhanas, noting etc. when the stateless state seems to be as interested as it is disinterested. Basically I'm a bit confused as to how all these complexities lead to the ultimate truth. Are all these things just a manipulation of experiences that are done in an effort to lead to the stateless state or is there something beyond that I am missing?
Yours truthfully,

That's a question that makes much more sense after than it does before. It's a close relative to the question, "Why meditate?"

Hi Netineti,

Yours is an important question, and as Chris alludes, not one to be answered simply or glibly; the answer, for each of us, is almost certain to change over time. I've thought a lot about the question and I have a lot to say about it. But before I say more, I'd like you to say what you mean by the "stateless state." If you were to poll the members of this forum about what that word means, you might be surprised at how many different answers you get. So, what do *you* mean by that? After all, it's your thread.

Kenneth

Thanks Kenneth for your response. By stateless state, I am referring to that which is here regardless of the experience that one is having. For me, this is more than often obscured but when I check back its always here and I guess I've only recently come to know it, yet its probably been here along. At work, at play, when I'm busy or still, annoyed or calm. It's still here, its like nothing special, yet contains everything and doesnt seem to have anything to say, feel, think about the experiences one is having.

It seems that the practice now should be just to notice this "Stateless state" and not obscure it, even though i dont have so much control over it. Will this lead to ultimate realisation? So far, at the very least it is washing away previous mental and physical inconsistencies.

I am very interested in what you have to say about these things and am especially interested in your thoughts on the connection between this type of practice, its validity, where it slots into a more sort of intense practice of concentration and insight. Looking at your 3-gear practice it seems that it is just different paths leading to the same place.

Your thoughts are appreciated,
netineti

Netineti, I believe you are pointing to what I call 2nd Gear, which is the practice of turning the light of attention back onto itself to objectify the apparent watcher or Witness. From this point of view, there never was a problem and there is nothing to be done. This is a powerful practice. I recommend that you continue to do it.

At some point you may wish to also look at the habitual tendency to become embedded in body sensations, feeling tone, mind states, and thoughts; you may want to directly objectify and thereby dis-embed from those lower layers of mind; this is what I call 1st Gear. So now we have two distinct but related practices: directly targeting the objects that arise in the mind (1st Gear) and directly targeting the subject or knower (2nd Gear). If, at some point, you may notice that even this apparent knower is just a mental construct, subject to conditions. You may want to surrender even your deepest sense of who you think you are. When you do, there is still Awareness. This is 3rd Gear.

I recommend all of these practices as a comprehensive program for freedom and happiness. But you don't have to do them all today. It's good to honor your own seasons and practice in a way that feels right to you, leaving open the possibility that your understanding will evolve over time.

This website is intended to support you at whatever level you are working now, so please don't hesitate to take advantage of it, reading the articles and asking questions in the forum. The combined wisdom of the members here is a treasure beyond value.

May you awaken in this lifetime,

Kenneth

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Thank you all for this very good thread. And thanks for the link, AugustLeo.

Thanks for all your responses. Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharshi, and lots of zen teachings seem to frequently refer to the stateless state, I find it is a bit more alusive in Theravadan, maybe it is just referred to as "Awareness". I myself am very curious about it!

Kenneth, above I am assuming that the process (or natural progression) in 2nd gear is the merging of the witness and whats witnessed with no sense of self, which is oneness or unity?

I am still unsure about what the paths specifically mean in reference to this type of practice. Im unclear about the parallels between 4 paths and Advaitic or other mystical teachings like christian/sufi etc that seem to be more aligned with the 2nd/3rd gear practice.

Thanks for welcoming me into the community, it is a very interesting place indeed to be a part of!