Please work within the culture of this community

Kenneth's post, copied from "Responses to 'How to Get Enlightened.'"

"Or maybe we could have a Jake and Chris Dialogue Thread, where we explore the ways in which our respective orientations to life and practice converge, compliment, differ, amplify, clash, teach, learn, etc. with/from each other!"-Jake

Jake, I like what you said in the quote above, but that isn't what I see happening. I see you taking a kind of self-satisfied and condescending attitude toward the other posters that would be annoying in any circumstance, but is especially so given that you don't seem to be able to evaluate your own level of understanding relative to the people with whom you are speaking. Let me spell it out. You are a beginner. You may not behave like an authority on this forum. If I allow beginners to masquerade as experts, it devalues the teachings I offer here. That is not acceptable given the mission of this site, which is to help others awaken. If you want to continue to participate here, you must do so within the culture of this community, which means no more fatuous posturing.

Kenneth

If anyone would like to discuss this matter, please do it here, rather than in the main discussion forum.

Thanks,

Kenneth

edit: typo

Well Kenneth,
I really don't know what to say. It's strange to me that someone who is such an advanced meditator has so little psychological insight. You are correct that, as regards first gear, I am a beginner. And as regards 2nd, uninterested. However, as regards 3rd gear, you are correct only in an ironic way- since this is all about beginning, more deeply as you go.
I will say this: the utter lack of criticality which you have brought to these dynamics is sad. I hope that one day you will be able to see that regardless of the level of one's 1st gear attainment, that doesn't entitle that person to act out their dramas and shadow stuff on others. That's what's been happening with Chris and I, my friend, with the key difference between us not his anagamihood and my pre-pathhood but my psychological awareness and his apparent lack thereof vis a vis shadow stuff.
I wondered why you let him jump on so many of my posts, and now I see that perhaps you are in shadow-collusion with him. Shame on you! I sincerely hope that some day you will see that your forum could be more than a place where people gather to agree with you and know their place in the hierarchy. I understand that you consciously have the best intentions regarding your standards, however it is so plain (at least to me) that what in fact is happening is a self-selection process of who is willing to behave as you require, not who is willing to surrender and become free. That's really to bad!
Take care--
Jake

Hi Jake,
You don't know me. I visit here frequently, almost every day, but don't post very often. I have read many of your posts and dialogue between you and Chris and others. You have a keen intellect and probably good grasp of shadow stuff. You remind me a lot of myself in a former time. It is a long way from the head to the heart and I used reside completely in my head despite exploration of shadow stuff. Shadow stuff won't take you into your heart the way meditation practice does. Shadow stuff has its place in the scheme of things, but in the end is to be left behind. I have often found that what appeared to be lack of psychological insight in others was in fact lack of awareness and realization and understanding on my behalf. Psychological insight is helpful, but nothing and I mean nothing alters and deepens psychological insight like meditation practice and attaining to deeper states of consciousness. I recall vividly all the shadow work I did only a few years ago, and it remains helfpful and important, but it does not correspond to the insights I have now which have come about sponatneously, without the head, but through the heart. Pride and defensiveness are head things, notions and ideas about self that have the sensation of needing to be defended. Cop the rebuke, use it to further your practice and awareness and insight into self. The heart is very humble and doesn't mind that light be shed on it because that is its home. The head is full of pride and boundary and takes flight when the sensations of challenge or threat appear. There is a powerful compassion here and Kenneth is a very compassionate fellow as are all the other community members. If you take flight, it will be a self imposed exile. What shadow lurks there? Strike a path toward humility...it will take you home a lot farther than shadowland. Hope to see you post again.
Paul

It's completely and utterly inappropriate for anyone to be psychoanalyzing anyone else here. There is nothing that will bring these message boards to ruin faster than that kind of thing. So Jake, whatever you think of me and whatever you believe my issues are, you may address them to me -- and to me only -- in a private message. From this moment forward I expect NEVER AGAIN to be the subject of any third party publicly posted psychoanalysis, by you or by anyone else.

Are we clear?

Everyone?

Now, one last thing: we're all human beings. I am a human being. I am an imperfect human being. I am a human being with countless flaws. I have foibles and bad karma and other crap coming out of my ears. It's not lost on me that I'm quite capable of being a jerk. If anything I have ever posted here to you, Jake, was seen personal or as being uniquely aimed at you or your psyche, I humbly and deeply apologize. One of the great realizations I've had in my practice is that everyone of you, out there, is a good teacher to me. So Jake, thanks for being a good teacher.

Peace, and out.

Dear Jake,

It seems clear to me that Kenneth's "calling you out" was more than enough to ruffle a few of your feathers. It's understandable for you to be frustrated or even hurt.

I'm going to be honest here in as kind a way as possible. What disappoints me most in regards to your response to Kenneth is that you continue to represent yourself as more or less an authority in fields of which we have no proof of your credentials. Jumping to conclusions about the psychological development of another is unwise even for professionals in the field. I fancy myself to know a great deal about psychology, and am applying to a graduate program in Counseling Psychology which, if I am accepted, begins this Fall. That said, I feel that it would be inappropriate for me to accuse someone of carrying around shadow stuff when my interaction the person is infrequent at best and mostly (if not exclusively) in online discussion forums.

I guess what I mean to say is that whether you intend to or not, a significant percentage of your thread contributions are laced with a tone befit of a senior practitioner. There are some who have no difficulty reading between the lines. But for those new to meditation/dharma, I can see how your authoritative tone my lead others to take what you say with more weight than is deserved given your acknowledged limited range of experience with what may be considered to be preliminary techniques and attainments. This is not a put down in regards to your experience or attainment. It wouldn't be fair to criticize someone at a lower rank, as even the most experienced practitioners were once in the same territory.

(continued)

I urge you to please refrain from making statements and judgments about others that sound authoritative when the foundations for such authority is lacking. I do not wish to see you walk away from this forum. Please use this as an opportunity to, if anything, point out an aspect of your discussion thread communication style that myself and others consider to be maladaptive within the culture of this community.

Sincerely,
Jackson

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I see your point about "psychoanalyzing others" Chris, and apologize. There isn't much else I can think of to say at this time about that. However, a few other things:
Jackson, I appreciate your honesty. The issue of accusing others of carrying around shadow stuff is a non-starter from me, since aside from my innapropriate reference to Chris above in this thread, I don't think I've made any such accusation, nor should it be neccessary given that we all seem to have shadows. The very point that you bring up r.e. on-line interaction seems to apply equally to all of your judgements of my "level". If I say something with an "authoritative tone", which you see as simply innacurate, why not respond to that perceived innacuracy and thus give me a chance to check myself and see if I'm speaking from my BS or my wisdom?
Much of what I have been criticized for saying, as indicative of my lack of attainment or more often of my implicit claim to higher than actual attainment, would not neccessarily be taken that way in other spiritual groups with different orientations to view, path, and goal. Which is just to say that some of the things about which we disagree, are not simply a matter of my supposed lack of experience, but of my different experience and my long time exploring this stuff with a very very different orientation than is mainstream here.
If respecting the culture of this community means that certain attainments entitle people to post with certain tones, and to be responded to with certain tones, I simply don't understand what you guys are all about. Seriously: the seeming innocence with which you use the phrase "befit a senior practitioner" is strange to me. Unless you can specifically point to something in a post which is factually innacurate, where the heck do you get the authority to presume about my understanding?

One of the major reasons that I participate in this forum is *specifically* because Kenneth is committed to upholding a set of standards that support the stated mission of Kenneth Folk Dharma. This is of paramount importance for those who are committed to their practice and use KFDh as a touchstone and learning center as they progress on their path.

All posts are held to the same set of standards. This is not true for other forums in which I no longer participate.

I know that Kenneth neither likes to nor wants to act in this type of administrative role, yet he understands the need and has committed himself to do so. He does it only as necessary, as gently and compassionately as possible.

Thank you Kenneth, for taking on this sometimes unpleasant task on behalf of the community.

Michael

For example, everything you are saying to me would make sense to me if I were running around making posts about what it felt like to be an anagami, what the issues were in going through that phase, and offering advice about how to move from 3rd to 4th path.
However, I am doing no such thing! I pretty much only post on 3rd gear topics, because that's been the main focus of my entire path from my first breakthrough at 14 or so. I have "dabbled" with more formal practices both on their own terms and for what help they could be in terms of 3rd gear, by which I mean going on several month build-up sprees of sitting meditation several times in my life. This last summer with Kenneth's help I was able to identify the basic outline of the progress of insight in my experience (nanas 1-11, at least at some degree of depth), and in retrospect can see that aside from the (I assume soft) jhannas 1-4 that I have learned in the last few months, all the nana territory is more or less familiar from these sitting sprees, and having the concept of cycling is chiefly useful to me in seeing where what I thought of as my "moods" have been coming from since that breakthrough in early adolescence.
Collating that info and having labels for it all has been very helpful in realizing that I'm frankly not that interested in that side of things, and I don't feel that any new experiences or models will really help me anymore in terms of awakening. Does that mean I will never have a new experience or insight? Of course not. Does that mean that I am making some claim of developmental enlightenment? No, rather than making such a claim I would simply describe my physio-energetic experience and accept all the feedback that was offered from practitioners more familiar with that territory.

All the above means to me, is that my spiritual materialism has really been delivered a severe blow through my exploration of Vippassana over the end of the summer and early fall, which has indeed, as I hoped when I came here, helped clear the decks for my Dzogchen practice.
As for that 3rd Gear practice, I have been exploring it for many many years, and I simply don't find a lot of what is said here about it that pertinent to the way I relate to it. I think the 3-speed transmission is an important contribution, but I suspect that the emphasis on the different gears' relationships may change over time. In the meantime, it seems a strange blind spot that so often the assumption here seems to be that 1st and 2nd Gear are neccessary preperation for 3rd gear "practice", which is what I take your comments, Chris and Jackson, to really point to. For I assume you are not saying that I post authoritatively about 1st Gear topics, rather that I am not apparently entitled to post authoritatively about 3rd gear topics because of my self-declared pre-path "status" in terms of 1st. If this is the case, than I have to shrug and say, that's a very provincial view.

And Cartago, I really appreciate your coming forth in such a personal way. It's very kind of you. I couldn't agree more about what you've said regarding the difference between head and heart. Unfortunately, this is the vocabulary I have, this is the tone I tend to come off as bearing, and yes my intellect is clever and keen. Much of that is due to the things I have read, namely a lot of philosophy with big words and pompous thinkers. It is a strange fact of our culture that intellectual acuity and a big vocabulary are often taken to be indicative of a disembodied intellectual, living in his head, talking down to others from his ivory tower. Making that assumption is probably not that useful, no more so than if someone with many polysylabic words in his or her vocabulary were to assume the corresponding things about those with different language habits. It is certainly a worthy aspiration, which I follow, to speak English in an easily understood vernacular. But 30 years of language habits will not die that easily. I grew up in a working class Irish-american family that prized excellent reading, writing, and spoken English- and which erred on the side of opinionatedness around the dinner table. I'm afraid that my demeanor reflects all of those factors and more.
Again, it could be premature to assume anything from that about the kinds of experiences I have had or how I relate to them, and what they might mean to me. As I said above, my emphasis is not on experiences or concepts right now
but rather on their common nature. I find it very very easy to practice this way and if pursuing 1st and 2nd gear modes helps someone to practice in this easy way, than I applaud that. Making assumptions about my right to speak authoritatively about my experiences in this regard as being tied to my avowed lack of attainment in 1st gear muddies our conversations, and I would appreciate a clear statement in this regard so we're all on the same page.

So is it the culture of this forum that one's higher path 1st Gear attainment, as verified by the advanced 1st gear practitioners here, entitles one to:

1)The right to employ a certain tone in their posts.

2)The right to be addressed with a certain tone in the posts of others.

3)The right to speak authoritatively about 2nd or 3rd gear practices, even if one is relatively new to them, and not that experienced with them.

4)The right to question the authoritative statements of others who may have been engaging these other practice modes for a while and benefited from them, because these others are not well attained in the 1st gear mode.

I hope you all actually consider these questions about the culture of this forum, and if these are your principles, you might think about being more clear and direct about holding them.
I also hope that these aren't the principles of this forum, or at least won't always be. have met so many interesting people here who didn't seem to hold these attitudes, and have gotten along rather well with them.
I have met many people over the years, most probably unenlightened, some rather deeply enlightened, and they all seemed to be able to see past the facets of my demeanor and personality which so profoundly bother some of you guys. Oh well!
Will you help me become clear about the specific culture of the forum by refraining for the moment in pointing out the ways in which my demeanor annoys you and commenting on the content of this last post of mine instead?

"Thanks for the feedback, guys. I see your point about "psychoanalyzing others" Chris, and apologize."

Apology accepted.

" If you take flight, it will be a self imposed exile. What shadow lurks there? Strike a path toward humility...it will take you home a lot farther than shadowland. Hope to see you post again.
Paul"

Cartago:
Yes, I've met some people on this forum who I recognize easily as far more wise in the ways to which I aspire than myself, and frequently seek and take their advice into account. When I was really interested in exploring the Progress of Insight under Kenneth's guidance, I really consolidated much insight that I had had but which lacked a unifying context and precision of technique which I only could have gotten with the help of a qualified teacher.
Kenneth and I parted ways when I began to see that the kind of advice he was offering me r.e. 3rd gear was not appropriate to me at this time. I'm sorry, Kenneth et al, if that sounds fatuous to you. The things you were saying made sense to me but simply did not speak to where I was at with that practice. That you seem to have assumed that the meaning of that perception of mine is that I have no 3rd Gear practice is... well, it is what it is! But it wasn't particularly helpful, except insofar as it cause me to take a long hard look at the way i engage awareness practice, with a critical eye, which did seem to help build my confidence as I tested my understanding in life and found that my experience coincided with that of the tradition which I (mostly) follow.

Jake, the truth about many of the folks here on KFDh is that they are as accomplished in second and third gear practice as they are in first gear. Please take that into account, as it dramatically changes the nature of this forum. For example, all of the work done by MIchael and Kenneth most recently is as much about second and third gear as it is about first. Many of us came here from Dharma Overground for this very reason, so the founding principles at KFDh are all-inclusive, and that is why I am here. I have a very active and productive second and third gear practice that has borne great fruit, as does Jackson, as does Michael, as do many others. So maybe one thing you could do would be to take some more time to read more carefully the various practice threads and the material Kenneth posts to KFDh just to make sure you're judging us all on the facts and not on assumption.

Whoa, Chris---
All I said was that what Kenneth was saying to me *at the point in our dialogue where that dialogue ended* about 3rd gear practice did not seem particularly pertinent to where I was at with that practice. There could have been a million reasons for that, and the first one I wondered was a difference in terminology. That led me to read the entire debate between Kenneth and Daniel in the "four path model" thread about Rigpa, which brought to my attention the fact that neither of them were reffering to Rigpa in a way consistent with it's home context, Dzogchen. That Dzogchen is one 3rd gear approach among many others is an hypotheses I'm totally willing to accept for the purposes of participation in this forum, however I personally feel little inclination to engage the specific 2nd and 3rd gear practices that I often see taught here, as they seem to be coming from a deep experience and realization of a very different contextualization of 3rd gear reality, namely Advaita Vedanta, and thus involve a slightly different way of engaging certain issues and obstacles in relation to 3rd gear practice in daily life. I simply prefer a more Chan or Dzogchen style approach to this practice, because I feel that it is more accessible in and more easily flows with my everyday life when contextualized and approached in this way. I try to be critical about generalizing my experience with this to others' practice, and accept that you guys have come to and work with this practice in a different way. Chiefly, my impression is that you mostly have come to an authentic 3rd Gear practice *after* some 1st gear attainment. Or have I totally misunderstood the facts in this regard?
And what specifically in what you read made you think I was judging yours or others' 3rd gear practice anyway?

Mostly what I find is that the way third and first gear are framed here often seems a bit theoretically extreme, with 1st Gear being framed in a spiritually materialistic way and 3rd Gear being framed in a completely transcendental way, rather than in a down to earth way as a simple direct practice for being liberated into- and not from- the flow of life. Does that mean I'm saying that every comment regarding these gears reflects this frame? No, it means just exactly what it says. Often this theoretical extremism has cropped up in various discussions. And is this comment to be taken as a critique of others' third gear practices? No, it should be extremely clear that what I am critiqueing is the way in which these practices are framed, and the reason I am doing so is that this way of framing them seems to me to generate the perception of obstacles which don't exist, and a view of "integration" which is somewhat extreme and fanciful.
None of this really addresses the clear points I asked for clarification on above however, except for the sub-clause in point three. Sorry to sound intellectual!

Okay.

"For I assume you are not saying that I post authoritatively about 1st Gear topics, rather that I am not apparently entitled to post authoritatively about 3rd gear topics because of my self-declared pre-path "status" in terms of 1st. If this is the case, than I have to shrug and say, that's a very provincial view."

Hi Jake,

I wrote: "But for those new to meditation/dharma, I can see how your authoritative tone my lead others to take what you say with more weight than is deserved given your acknowledged limited range of experience with what may be considered to be preliminary techniques and attainments."

It seems as though you misunderstood me, which means I may not have worded this statement with as much care as intended. Where it seems clear to me that you have voiced your limited experience with 1st gear and lack of interest in 2nd gear, I can't say I know for sure how you would rate your experience with 3rd gear. I seem to recall earlier threads where you considered yourself to be in the earlier stages of this type of practice as well (as oxymoronic as that may sound). Correct me if I'm wrong. So, just to clear things up, my comment was not in regards to 1st gear in particular, but rather all three.

I was not implying, nor have I ever, that a certain level of 1st gear experience or attainment was required for use of an authoritative voice on topics other than 1st gear itself. I hope that clears things up a bit concerning your perceived bias toward 1st gear attainment within this community, which in my view is false.

Jackson

I have been relating to third gear in a way called Dzogchen Semde, which is employed differently by different lineages. Some view it more a four stage model such as mahamudra and others view it more as a linear presentation of the unbroken state, translated down as it were for human beings who are very conditioned by time. In terms of my view, there isn't much to say about reality as self-perfection in timeless awareness. As for the way that I implement that view through more formal practice, lots could be said but it doesn't seem to correspond with much on this forum. So similar view, but different practices, and a different way of framing that basic experience of non-duality.

Actually, at one point on the tulku Urgyen thread you mentioned my connection with teachers in a Dzogchen lineage. I thought about that, since mostly I havehad contact with more experienced practitioners, not formal teachers. So I did contact a teacher in the lineage with which I am connected. It was an instructive interaction.
When I first approached him many many yrs ago at the retreat, the message I got was very different from what he said to me this time. Then, he seemed quite open to progressive practices, discovering the natural state, etc. But when I contacted him a few months ago he totally dismantled my "illusory dharma ego", as he refferred to my vestigial spiritual materialism, and it's "enlightenment project". He chewed all that up and spat it out, and recommended that I take refuge in awareness, and stop evaluating myself according to experiences and concepts.
It was very well taken advice, and my whole attitude to practice has shifted since taking it. So I certainly value the ability of a teacher to completely pull the rug from under our egos. The teachers in this lineage are, I might add, known for their wrathful disposition and their alomst congenital dislike for methods involving calming or enticing the ego's of their students with comforting words of promises of greater and more experiences down the line.

His message of taking utter and complete refuge in nondual awareness rather than in any experiences or maps was delivered in a way so forcefull yet impersonal that I couldn't help but benefit from it, and have found my "practice" shifted to a new level as a result of sincerely hearing his teaching (of course, he'd probably slap me to hear me say that.)
Again, I still do formal practice when I get the chance, but it seems much more non-linear than it did to me a few months ago, and yet there is a quality of pervasive equality that characterises my experience most of the time while waking or dreaming, regardless of the specific contents. It is different from both the equanimity I associate with the Vippasana method of bare attention, and the EQ associated with 11th nana, although not incompatible with those since it seems to be that of which they are reflections.
So in short, I find that the ups and downs of life only have an effect on me to the extent that I am looking for refuge in them. And I find that I am not looking for refuge in them as a way of life anymore (at least right now), but rather intermittently here and there I catch myself and just relax instead.
So that's a glimpse of my current approach and experience of this kind of practice, although more could certainly be said, and I really enjoy discussing this with others right now.

Hi Jake,

I appreciate you taking the time to say a bit about your practice.

Now, just so we understand each other from here on out (at least you and me, I can't speak for the others), what you're describing in terms of taking refuge in awareness as a continual practice is very much in line with my experience of 2nd gear practices. The terminology is different, of course. But what the Advaitists refer to "I, I" or "I AMness" is that very same awareness that knows objects but is not objects. Resting as that which knows (i.e. awareness) is 2nd gear, so long as it is distinguishable. And let's face it, it usually is for most of us.

3rd gear, then (in my personal understanding) is surrendering in such a profound way as to experience what Ken Wilber often calls "One Taste". As awareness and the objects of awareness dissolve into each other fully (no just in concept) - therein lies 3rd gear. It is the culmination of the formless practices, the culmination of the four yogas of Mahamudra, the culmination of the four yogas of Semde.

I don't know if you'll agree with me on this or not. Either way it's OK. I just want to see if we can understand each other better.

Jackson

yes, that's why I'm skeptical of 2nd gear practices, since they seem to overcorrect for ordinary embeddedness. No, when I refer to "Awareness", I'm using that as shorthand for nondual awareness, which is why I phrase it that way alot. There is no seperation between awareness and phenomena, so why would I cultivate the sense that there is? Does that help clarify it?
--Jake