Survey: Your Definition of Enlightenment

"@Kenneth:

There's very little progress to be made at the level of battling ideas. Religion is everywhere, and it does not respond to reason. It's just calcified ideas. This forum is not the place for religion. This is a hands-on forum, for people who want to do the experiment and find out for themselves.

To insist that there are 13 notes in an octave (counting the tonic twice, as is customary) in western music is not orthodoxy. It is observable reality. No one is served by pretending that speculation is as valid as observation.
"

It clear what is being said here, cannot say I am not going to not want to discuss ideas. But at least we know your judging criteria. Should ideas be now posted in the "off topic" section?

OK, Mikael, you make some good points. This thread is where we get to say what we think enlightenment is. May I request that you qualify some of your assertions, though? For example, if you want to say "this is still not Buddhist realization because..." you might preface it with "my understanding is..." or "my favorite interpretation is..." That's important for a variety of reasons, not least because there is no monolithic "Buddhist realization." There are different schools with different interpretations and even within those schools there are individual differences among teachers. I would point you toward Tulku Urgyen and Nyoshul Khenpo, for example, who speak of an inherently existing buddha nature. Even within Theravada there are Thai Forest monks like Ajahn Maha Boowa, who speaks of an inherently existing bodhicitta.

There is also this quote from Gotama Buddha: "There is, monks, an unborn, unbecome, unmade, uncompounded. If there were not this unborn, unbecome, unmade, uncompounded, then there would be no deliverance here visible from that which is born, become, made, compounded. But since there is this unborn, unbecome, unmade, uncompounded, therefore deliverance is visible from that which is born, become, made, compounded."

My contention is that it isn't possible to know what is being referred to here without the direct experience (or non-experience). It's tempting to reduce "view" to religion, i.e., something to be accepted uncritically and defended. Why not look at all these descriptions as place-holders until you can find out for yourself? Maybe the Buddhists aren't even right about any of this. Maybe the theists are right. It takes a lot of courage to open to that possibility. But if you want to find out what is true, locking yourself into a position before you've done the experiement isn't likely to yield the best results, IMHO.

"Dude, though I don't agree with some of what you said, agree with a lot of it, and don't really understand most of it, it has been fascinating and I'd prefer it if you kept talking.
THANKS"

Don't go! If it's because I called you a 'kid', I take it all back! It was a kind of shorthand for some of you participants younger than me (I'm a 'raging granny' and proud of this attainment of a long, hard journey) in years and ferociously, prodigiously erudite beyond your years.

One of the two most formative teachers of my current decade blew my mind in class one day by saying: 'Meditation is whatever you do to implement the View.' It's something I expect to be contemplating for the rest of my life. There is no way to excise view from practice, any more than there is a way excise the nervous system from the body. This insight is the result of 3 decades of intense practice for my teacher; I don't think either he or I could have come to it as directly as you have.

"Don't go! If it's because I called you a 'kid', I take it all back! It was a kind of shorthand for some of you participants younger than me (I'm a 'raging granny' and proud of this attainment of a long, hard journey) in years and ferociously, prodigiously erudite beyond your years.

One of the two most formative teachers of my current decade blew my mind in class one day by saying: 'Meditation is whatever you do to implement the View.' It's something I expect to be contemplating for the rest of my life. There is no way to excise view from practice, any more than there is a way excise the nervous system from the body. This insight is the result of 3 decades of intense practice for my teacher; I don't think either he or I could have come to it as directly as you have."

No I'm not going I just meant I won't get all crazy philosophical here anymore I still like it here. Thank you for being so nice and 'granny-like' haha!

"May I request that you qualify some of your assertions, though? For example, if you want to say "this is still not Buddhist realization because..." you might preface it with "my understanding is..." or "my favorite interpretation is..." "

Ok Kenneth. I get what you're saying. thanks

Simply knowing what this experience is.

Hey guys! Thanks for your great posts, as always!

I thought you all might find this link of interest.

This text was referenced by another member of this site - it is very good. Detailing method, stages and fruit from the Chan perspective. I find great affinity with this stream of presentation - my experience resembles his view.

11.drbachinese.org/online_audio_english/...Hua_Shang_Ren_01.mp3

It is an audio reading from The Chan Handbook, by Venerable Master Hsuan Hua on meditation and the realization of Chan or Dharma-body. It is quite interesting and finds agreement, as I understand it, with several site members. Good stuff!

Enjoy!

-Adam.

Thanks for this, Adam. Although I've read-- and very much liked-- the Chan Handbook, I didn't know there was audio of it.

Yeah, there's quite a bit on their site. Good stuff, for those who find affinity with that Chan way!

-Adam.

Thanks Adam, for the above Chan Handbook link.
Here's the same audio for those who have iPods: itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-chan-handbook/id341018677
(it's free to download).

Welcome, mate

Here's a link to more talks from the Master

www.drba.org/online/audio/dharma_index.asp.html

-Adam.

"Thanks Adam, for the above Chan Handbook link.
Here's the same audio for those who have iPods: itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-chan-handbook/id341018677
(it's free to download)."

And here is a PDF of same:

www.longbeachmonastery.org/the_chan_handbook.pdf

Oh my nerd! Only on Kenneth Folk Dharma can you get a link to a cool-ass Chan Handbook and then get 3 follow-up links to the same resources in various digital formats! ;-D

Did somebody mention media formats? Here is venerable master in YouTube format.


Seriously, venerable master had gone through a lot of difficulties in his practice, and his wisdom
shine brightly in his teaching years.

Mikaelz, I think you should continue to post about crazy philosophy - but start a new topic and clearly label it with the subject matter so no one gets confused, then fire away! When it comes to this stuff the ore the merrier, but at some point there is such a thing as experience and realization, and that's what Kenneth is trying to maintain. If Kenneth didn't do that part here we'd end up with a mess. If you've ever witnessed an unmoderated message board where there are no rules and where absolutely anyone can be an expert, you'd be happy Kenneth is trying so hard

Awesome guys!

My head just about imploded when I saw the Chan Handbook in PDF format; then the Master in video format too on youtube; and all these audio resources - dam I love the electronic world of internet Dharma!!! May the wisdom of the Dharma-body continue to proliferate in all the dimensions of mind and cyberspace!!

With deep bow of respect and gratitude!

-Adam.

"Awesome guys!

My head just about imploded when I saw the Chan Handbook in PDF format; then the Master in video format too on youtube; and all these audio resources - dam I love the electronic world of internet Dharma!!! May the wisdom of the Dharma-body continue to proliferate in all the dimensions of mind and cyberspace!!

With deep bow of respect and gratitude!

-Adam."

Hmm-- do you suppose that 'cyberkaya' is a part of sambhogakaya, or vice-versa, or maybe a kaya of its own?

"Hmm-- do you suppose that 'cyberkaya' is a part of sambhogakaya, or vice-versa, or maybe a kaya of its own?"

I'd guess that cyberkaya exists interdependently as a facet of nirmanakaya.... but I could be wrong. I'll need to meditate and gain more experience before I can definitively say.

"one of the attornies i work for is puerto rican. when he writes 'palabra' in response to one of my emails it is a high compliment"

thanks mike!
just got back online yesterday and just caught up on this thread today!

cyberkaya...
aha!
Glad to see a willingness to explore the group dynamics here a bit more carefully from all sides. One thing I notice about this text format is that it can easily morph into a cybersamsaric flatland of letters on a screen. While I am sensitive to the capacity to recognize similar insights, and recognize many such with -- well, I think with everyone here, honestly-- I for one will try to reserve judgement about the depth and breadth of someone's realization until I've lived with them day in and out for a few years-- or at least met them in person, and had a chance to grok their body language.