Kasina irritation...

Sometimes, after about 30 minutes with the kasina, I feel a general sense of irritation with the whole thing (not quite accurate, hard to describe). What I do when this sense becomes positively annoying is to revert breath observation. Occasionally, on a really long sit, I will go back to the kasina and it is okay. The other interesting behavior with the kasina is that it spends more time in the Necker cube effect than the actual state of the bowl.

Vajramanas, see if you can track what happens before and after the irritation. There may be a pattern. This could be helpful in at least two ways: 1) looking for the pattern keeps you engaged in your practice, and 2) knowing that the irritation typically gives way to some other, presumably less irritating situation can give you some solace while you surrender to the unpleasantness. Also, it doesn't hurt to do a little vipassana from time to time during your kasina practice. For example, when the irritation comes, get interested in precisely which body sensations and mind states are associated with irritation. This is important work in and of itself (you are dis-embedding from your experience whenever you objectify an experience by noting it) and, like mapping, it can keep you engaged in your sitting even during unpleasant moments.

The Necker cube effect is an experience commonly reported by yogis while practicing with a kasina; just one of the many fascinating phenomena that arise naturally while doing this practice.

Thanks for this post and for your dedication to your practice. It's inspirational for all of us.

Kenneth

P.S. By the way, nice job in having the good instincts to revert to following the breath when the kasina gets too annoying. This ability to choose the right practice to do in any given circumstance is a meta-skill that every good yogi needs as part of his or her yogi toolbox.

Part of the irritation is clearly physical--we have hit major allergy season as the fruitless mulberries drop their little green allergy bombs all over the city. The other part seems related to eye twitching: double image (relax the eyes and they go cross-eyed), disappearance of the kasina into the background (they aren't THAT close in color!), and still some jumpiness of the image. I may try moving back a little farther and see what happens.

Hi Vajramanas,

Notice how even things that are clearly physical, e.g., pollen irritation, are more or less tolerable depending on what stratum of mind you are accessing. To give a mundane but extreme example, you don't notice pollen irritation when you are asleep, but you do notice it when you are awake. Why? The objective situation hasn't changed, but your state of mind has. The same kind of thing happens in meditation. Some states that are routinely accessed in meditation are characterized by irritability, some by joy, some by bliss, some by equanimity. That's what you want to investigate. Are these states repeatable, recognizable, and arising in a predictable order? I'll bet dollars to donuts that they are. If you can map these states in your own experience, you can learn something valuable about how your mind is structured.

As you sit there for 30 minutes, the pollen situation is likely to remain fairly consistent. Watch what your mind does with it. Maybe after some period of irritation (in which it would be completely acceptable to close your eyes and follow the breath instead of gazing at the kasina) a new state arises in which eye irritation is not a problem. And after that, something else happens...

The weird things that happen to the kasina, e.g., disappearing, glowing brightly, etc., can seen to be happening in an pattern. These phenomena are telling you about your own mind. See if you can decode the message.

Kenneth

Today was an advertisement for the kasina approach. I had such bad allergy issues (thanks, El Paso!) my nose plugged up and there was no way I was going to be able to watch the anapana spot. I kept my eyes on the kasina and it seemed to stabilize except for the Necker cube effect and some very short disappearances. I believe I even felt the onset of some real access concentration but the 'trickster' managed to get me analyzing and it went away.

"I believe I even felt the onset of some real access concentration but the 'trickster' managed to get me analyzing and it went away."-Vajramanas

This is what I call the "wow factor." The first few times something really cool happens, you go "Wow!" and start reflecting on how cool it was... which, of course makes you lose your focus, which in turn chases away the cool state. The wow factor is self-correcting, though, because no matter how interesting something is, it becomes routine once you've seen it enough times and you stop getting excited about out. When that happens, you don't care whether it goes or stays; and that's when you are ready to move on to whatever is next.

Kenneth

One of the few home sits I have done with natural daylight. Good focus, without irritation, for about 25 minutes. I did have a brief (less than 15 seconds) period where the kasina dilated and contracted alternately (slowly and not large amplitude) followed by a cloud of yellow-green color moving from right to left (cloud lasted maybe 3 seconds). Kasina did not show the 'jumpiness' I have seen before, although there was loss of color and the Necker cube effect (which is more prevalent the expected appearance).

About time I got on again. My 4th book submitted to the publisher--those last 4 weeks were pretty bad. As for the kasina, it seems to have stabilized.
Interestingly, I was on the mountain seat at the zendo last Sunday and clearly went into absorption (not sleep!) during the last part of the main sit. My wife had to hit the gong twice.

My wife has also used the kasina as well. Interestingly, she will often see (in her mind's eye and sans kasina) a wall of blue with black borders and moon-like item more or less in the center (nimitta?). She shows no evidence of routing through the jhanas. She is less restricted than I by Buddhist literature, which is probably working FOR her.

"About time I got on again. My 4th book submitted to the publisher--those last 4 weeks were pretty bad. As for the kasina, it seems to have stabilized.
Interestingly, I was on the mountain seat at the zendo last Sunday and clearly went into absorption (not sleep!) during the last part of the main sit. My wife had to hit the gong twice.

My wife has also used the kasina as well. Interestingly, she will often see (in her mind's eye and sans kasina) a wall of blue with black borders and moon-like item more or less in the center (nimitta?). She shows no evidence of routing through the jhanas. She is less restricted than I by Buddhist literature, which is probably working FOR her."

My teacher, Gozen, perspicaciously asked if I sensed my body. The answer is NO. No body sensation, no back of the eyelid sensation, hearing obviously nearly cutoff, eyes closed, beyond noticing the breath.

The Kasina is fairly stable in recent sits. I will still get an occasional "ripple" effect and the Necker Cube thing has never left. The comments in Monson's log really struck home--I am referring to mental wandering. Some of the books I have on jhana practice are not telling the whole story (surprise!). For example, my wife appears to nearly always see a nimitta, whereas I virtually never have a manifestation that could be called a nimitta (at least in my limited knowledge). I am not sure a nimitta is particularly relevant. On those occasions when I have been in no-mind, no body, no nothing, I would not expect a nimitta. In fact, no-expectation seems to be a key to being this "state."

I seem to get one hallucination about every six months. the most recent was a fluttering calico piece of cloth hanging down from the Ino lectern in the Zen Center. Lasted about 5 seconds and vanished. Either that or I was seeing another "ripple" and misinterpreted it. I am not particularly interested in bizarre manifestation since they seem to be more a distraction than anything else.

"About time I got on again. My 4th book submitted to the publisher--those last 4 weeks were pretty bad. As for the kasina, it seems to have stabilized.
Interestingly, I was on the mountain seat at the zendo last Sunday and clearly went into absorption (not sleep!) during the last part of the main sit. My wife had to hit the gong twice.

My wife has also used the kasina as well. Interestingly, she will often see (in her mind's eye and sans kasina) a wall of blue with black borders and moon-like item more or less in the center (nimitta?). She shows no evidence of routing through the jhanas. She is less restricted than I by Buddhist literature, which is probably working FOR her."

If I stare at the Kasina long enough to burn it into my retinas and I close my eyes, I will also see a moon like object against a dark background. Is this what she's seeing?

I used to stare at this smiley face on my girlfriends wall before I ever heard of kasina practice and I noticed that if I kept my eyes on it long enough the whole room would start to go weird and the brain would start making strange patterns out of the things in the extremes of my peripheral vision. This lead to an absorption state (1st Jhana) well before I had any idea of what a Jhana or a Kasina was.

I think you are probably right. She seems to be a natural, whereas I must sit a l-o-n-g time for anything to happen.

"I think you are probably right. She seems to be a natural, whereas I must sit a l-o-n-g time for anything to happen."

Have you ever seen one of these?
www.yfaith.co.uk/images/jesus-face-A4.gif

If you can get that to work, the kasina is the exact same. Perhaps you should try putting a small dot in the center of it.

Ah, yes. I am aware of the optical illusion that occurs from the "color" reversal. I will try this...
I do, however, seem to be able to side into jhana states without ever seeing a nimitta. I find this interesting (at least a little bit).

"Ah, yes. I am aware of the optical illusion that occurs from the "color" reversal. I will try this...
I do, however, seem to be able to side into jhana states without ever seeing a nimitta. I find this interesting (at least a little bit)."

I use it to get the mind concentrated, but I don't really work with the mental image. I find that the kasina helps get access concentration, but I focus on pleasant sensations rather than on the nimatta to shift into the 1st Jhana.

To me, the nimatta is basically the image that you see as a color reversal. When staring at the object that retinal memory is visible at the same time as the object which is why you get haloing and such (it's the reverse image overlaid over the real object).

About time I rejoined my own thread. A period of unemployment. I can now begin dana again. The Kasina is now superstable. I can see it at any time with my eyes open (a little disconcerting when driving!). Access concentration on a regular basis. Not so many "jhana" events, but I am not pushing it.

Vajramanas, do you mean you have you dispensed with looking at a physical kasina can now see it just by inclining your mind toward it?

Eric

Yes. That is exactly the case; however, only with extreme difficulty with eyes closed (brain keeps saying you can't see anything with your eyes closed--which is not quite true). I can bring up the kasina at nearly any time with my eyes open and it floats in front of my face. I can also vary the size from tiny to huge.

Wow, great! How long did it take you to get to this point? Did you start with a mix of staring at it and then closing the eyes and "seeing" it, gradually shifting the emphasis to the latter? How long did you sit for each day?

Eric

Took at least 5 months to truly stabilize. I sit 30 minutes to 2 hours depending on the day. Never less than 30 minutes. I have worked with the look-close eyes-see approach after reading some comments in Richard Shankman's book on Samadhi.

After my most recent sits, I would still tend to maintain that anapanasati is a much stronger path to jhana for me than is the kasina. I can see the kasina with eyes open on "demand." On the other hand, access concentration now occurs with a few minutes of breath focus....