Goenka method

A number of practitioners here identify themselves as "Goenka" students. I know who he is, but would some of you care to describe the "Goenka method", especially as contrasted to the Gears? Just curious.

On Goenka's 10 day courses one is taught to observe the breath (without noting or labelling) at the nostrils for 4 days, slowly starting to pay attention to the sensations in that area, and later on on the other 6 days one is taught to be aware of all body sensations, sweeping the body up and down, down and up, becoming more aware of impermanence..
It is a very strict tradition and students are asked not to practice any other techniques or to choose only one for themselves and not mix things up because it might "harm them".

So basically Goenka is 1st gear in a very strict method.

Goenka method is very much geared toward focus and noticing subtilty. The general idea is that if awareness is alowd to wander (like in noting practice) that the student will only notice gross sensations. However if the awareness is focused on a particular area and held there then subtile sensation will become more and more noticeable. It's geared towards lay-people rather than monastics.

Not as strict as Renzi Zen, but still as yadidb says it's a very strict and specific method; however there is a freewheeling dharma talk at the end of every evening. I must say Goenka is a fantastic public speaker, very jolly.

Goenka method is just like the body scanning technique described by Kabat-Zinn.
Visual field, sounds and thoughts are not taken as objects ("If you don't like our instructions you can leave").
The aim is to destroy the link between body sensations and emotional tones (generator of new sankhara), developing equanimity.
It seems to me that the initial anapana meditation is only a tool to develop momentary concentration and then switch to vipassana.
Jhana are not mentioned in their teachings (just like nanas and the whole progress of insights), but I think that it is a pretty 'wet' meditation method, because this strict focus on body sensations (without any labelling technique) develops a lot of body awareness / energy / chi ecc. speeding up the progress through the lower nanas up to A&P.

"Goenka method is just like the body scanning technique described by Kabat-Zinn.
Visual field, sounds and thoughts are not taken as objects ("If you don't like our instructions you can leave").
The aim is to destroy the link between body sensations and emotional tones (generator of new sankhara), developing equanimity.
It seems to me that the initial anapana meditation is only a tool to develop momentary concentration and then switch to vipassana.
Jhana are not mentioned in their teachings (just like nanas and the whole progress of insights), but I think that it is a pretty 'wet' meditation method, because this strict focus on body sensations (without any labelling technique) develops a lot of body awareness / energy / chi ecc. speeding up the progress through the lower nanas up to A&P.
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This I can vouch for. I got to A/P on my first 10 day course, and kept cycling up and down the dukkha nanas for years, occasionally getting to low or mid equanimity, all without knowing what it was. This is all in hindsight. I am going through a phase where chakras are the main theme of everything happening to me. And thinking back, I think the technique was very effective in setting off the kundalini energy. Kenneth has said somewhere that it is more or less stealth kundalini yoga and I heartily agree.

I stopped doing the sweeping at one stage years ago, because I heard how Goenka's teacher taught his students to primarily focus on the heart region. So for years the mind kept falling there observing a constant flow of negative sensations, there as well as the throat. It's wierd cos Sayagyi U Ba khin's teacher Saya Tetgyi, taught his students to focus on the crown area.

But I always felt there was something missing and not until I started noting mahasi style did I see how I was not disembeding from the subtler states of mind, and the sensations of "I"

"Goenka method is very much geared toward focus and noticing subtilty. The general idea is that if awareness is alowd to wander (like in noting practice) that the student will only notice gross sensations. However if the awareness is focused on a particular area and held there then subtile sensation will become more and more noticeable. It's geared towards lay-people rather than monastics."

As much as I appreciate SN Goenka and his ability to inspire so many people to practice meditation, his opinion on noting practice is invalid. It makes me wonder whether he formed his opinion before ever actually trying the noting technique, let alone becoming proficient at it.

One's concentration can get incredibly strong from doing noting practice. The level of subtlety one may perceive can (and usually does) get very, very refined. For this reason, I've met more stream enterers from the Mahasi tradition than from the Goenka tradition. And really, isn't that the point of vipassana meditation; to make actual, irreversible progress in insight?

I'm not saying that people can't get stream entry using Goenka's method, as I'm sure there are those who have. But most of the Goenka practitioners I've had the privilege to meet eventually used Mahasi noting to make progress far beyond what the body scanning technique was able to do for them. The proof is in the pudding, as they say (whoever "they" are, anyway).

Funny coincidence but I actually talked to Kenneth about this yesterday. I think we should ask Kenneth about this because I think he's got it figured out.

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Funny coincidence but I actually talked to Kenneth about this yesterday. I think we should ask Kenneth about this because I think he's got it figured out.

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Isn't posting here implicitly asking Kenneth?

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Funny coincidence but I actually talked to Kenneth about this yesterday. I think we should ask Kenneth about this because I think he's got it figured out.

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Yes, I would love to hear Kenneth's take on this. His explanations are always clear.

I imagine his critique would include his rationale for why noting is particularly effective in regards to objectifying and de-embedding, and how the Goenka method falls short in this area. Just a guess

I've been doing Goenka-style body sweeping as part of my eclectic "I'll try anything" practice suite since I first learned it from Shinzen Young tapes in 1990. I think it's a great practice and I still use it. As I look around at other yogis, here's what I notice:

Body sweeping seems to be very effective at getting yogis to the 4th Insight Knowledge, aka the Arising and Passing Away of Phenomena. This is a very big deal, arguably the most important event in a yogi's life because it signals the opening into a whole new world of subtle phenomena that were not previously available. For some reason, however, body sweeping alone does not seem to bring yogis to stream entry. So a lot of yogis switch over to (or add) Mahasi-style noting and get stream entry (1st Path of Enlightenment) that way. I can speculate about why this might be the case:

Mahasi practice, because it emphasizes not only noting but also using the breath as a primary object for noting, fosters a high degree of concentration when practiced diligently over time. This is important because the whole spectrum of phenomena, from gross to subtle, has to be objectified (and dis-embedded from) in order to get 1st Path. Body sweeping, which emphasizes vibrations over other phenomena, is targeting a narrower category of experience, (or at least that's how many yogis are interpreting it). Goenka yogis tend to favor vibratory phenomena rather than the vibration free experiences that are prior to the Insight Knowledges of A & P (#4) and Dissolution (#5) as well as the (initially) vibration-free experiences that come after the 4th and 5th Insight Knowledges, aka the formless realms. Since the entire broad spectrum of experiences has to be objectified in order to attain 1st Path (or any Path), limiting oneself to vibrations does not get the job done.

(cont)

(cont)

At the same time, this explains why the sweeping technique is so effective at getting a yogi to the A & P; when the A&P is the goal, vibrations are everything. And since one has to have the A & P before one can attain 1st Path (stream entry), body sweeping is a very valuable addition to the yogi toolbox.

One might reasonably ask the question, then, is body sweeping inessential, and the Mahasi practice complete? In other words, can the Mahasi noting practice do the whole job, getting one first to the A & P and then to stream entry and beyond?

The answer is a qualified "yes" if we are talking about 1st Gear only. Mahasi noting is an efficient way to get a yogi to the A & P and all the way to arahatship. It does not address 2nd and 3rd Gears, of course. In other words, it does not lead to dwelling as the Witness or the more subtle sense of knowing (2nd Gear), and it does not lead to the surrender required to stand aside and let awareness recognize awareness (3rd Gear). Furthermore, just because Mahasi noting is, by itself, a complete 1st Gear package, that doesn't mean a yogi can't do even better by melding the noting practice with the sweeping practice. (By the way, Goenka's teacher, U Ba Khin is probably rolling over in his grave as we attribute the body-sweeping practice to his disciple). In my own favored campaign of ruthless pragmatism, I recommend using any and all techniques, experimenting extensively, and coming up with a suite of practices that can be used as appropriate depending on the situation and the individual yogi.

One man's humble opinion,

Kenneth

Thanks!

"that doesn't mean a yogi can't do even better by melding the noting practice with the sweeping practice.
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That is where I am at... seems to be working for me... It seems a real organic extension of body scanning... In Goenka's discourses he is like, "Notice coolness, heat, itching etc." I mean if I am doing that I have to be noting... I have not idea why he would discourage noting practice... its some strange paradox...