the anti-mushroom culture

good name for a sangha
or a band

A bit of context: the "mushroom culture" is a concept originated by Bill Hamilton and recently popularized by Daniel Ingram. It refers to the tendency of many dharma teachers to withhold information about enlightenment and high level jhanic attainments from their students. As Bill used to say, dharma teachers like to "keep 'em (their students) in the dark and feed 'em sh_t."

The opposite of the mushroom culture is simply telling the truth as you know it, based on your own experience. If you are a dharma teacher and you believe you are enlightened, have the courage to say so. If you know something about jhanas, tell what you know. Although there are some downsides to making information freely available, they are far outweighed by the upsides. Mushrooms can only thrive in the dark. And if you ask yourself "who benefits from withholding information?" it becomes very clear that the answer is not "the students." Who, then?

Tell the truth as you know it, in your own experience. That includes not only your assessment of your own relative enlightenment, but also the fact that after all these years of meditation you wake up every morning to find that you are still a human being with human emotions, human needs, and human failings. If we all tell the truth about this, we can lay to rest some of the infantile mythology about enlightenment that has gone virtually unchallenged for thousands of years. It's time to clear the air about what enlightenment is and what it is not. Who's on board?

Kenneth

I'm on board if we can talk about ALL of it, including the downsides-- and even more particularly, about the issues mentioned in the chapter on 'the embarrassments of enlightenment' in "Saints & Psychopaths". I've been mulling that stuff over for a few months now.
I'd be interested, too, in what, specifically, YOU mean by 'the infantile mythology about enlightenment.' I'd bet that each of us might fill in that category somewhat differently; it would be interesting to compare notes.

Yes, Kate, let's talk about all of it. I'll start with what I mean by the infantile mythology about enlightenment:

Enlightened people:

1) do not experience fear.
2) do not experience anger.
3) do not experience sensual desire.
4) do not get stressed out.
5) do not exist in this degenerate age.
6) are easily recognizable by their beatific smiles and unswervingly pleasant demeanor.
7) wear flowing white robes.
live a constant state of cosmic bliss-out.
9) always know the answer.

Seeing the list, you may laugh at such a cartoonish vision... but don't laugh too hard. Most of us, in our heart of hearts, are clinging to one or more of these unrealistic and demonstrably false notions. Magical/mythical thinking is alive and well in 2010. Is it time for us to grow up? I believe it is.

Kenneth

"1) do not experience fear.
2) do not experience anger.
4) do not get stressed out.
7) wear flowing white robes."

In spirit of openness, I'd like to know more about these 4: fear, anger, stress, robes.
Does something about experiencing fear, anger and stress change for one who is 'off the ride'?
And finally, what color are your robes Kenneth?

Isn't one of the major factors in this situation the steadfast rule in Vinaya Pitaka where it states that the highest offence that a monastic can commit is to claim an attainment that they haven't actually attained?

In the Vinaya doing so is considered an offence even more serious than taking a life, and if a monk breaks it (apparently even by mistake) the offender is cast out of the sangha and can never return under any circumstances. Accordingly monks who feel that they have attained won't dare say so out of fear that they might somehow be mistaken.

This is kind of laughable to us in the west, but those monks in East Asia take it extremely seriously; because of that rule in the Vinaya their whole way of life is at stake if they lay a false claim.

Apparently the way they scoot around this rule is that, if a monk has attained a certain level they remain silent when that particular question is asked. So for example, Kenneth is an Arhat, and to find that out we'd Q&A like this:

Q: "Are you a stream enterer?" A: "No"
Q: "Are you an once returner?" A: "No"
Q: "Are you a non returner?" A: "No"
Q: "Are you an Arhat?" A: no answer is given.

Thus you can safely assume that the monk is an Arhat, but they don't need to actually say so to confirm it. So they are not really breaking any rule on the off chance they are mistaken. Mind you, you'd need to be on an exceptionally intimate basis with your teacher to even ask in the first place, but that's the lengths they go to so that there is no risk of breaking the rule in the Vinaya. -I think it's comical, but to them it's no laughing matter.

"Enlightened people:

1) do not experience fear.
2) do not experience anger.
3) do not experience sensual desire.
4) do not get stressed out.
5) do not exist in this degenerate age.
6) are easily recognizable by their beatific smiles and unswervingly pleasant demeanor.
7) wear flowing white robes.
live a constant state of cosmic bliss-out.
9) always know the answer.


"

10 ) Will have supernatural (psychic) powers.

this one works in reverse, if someone has or is believed to have psychic powers it can be assumed they are enlightened.

Yeah this is a real sad topic. I know a couple people who are in the Mushroom Culture pretty deep. I am tempted to say look wake up this is what this deal is all about--follow these instructions, stop daydreaming dharma. Live it... it will change your life... but you will not be completely perfect by any means... I haven't had the courage to bring this up with them. Mostly because I am so much younger than my friends and I don't want to sound like some prideful youth who hasn't a clue... My eternal gratitude to Kenneth, Daniel, and (the late) Bill who don't water this stuff down...

For some people the Mushroom Culture is a happy convenience. Think about it.

More later...

Enlightenment is about the feel of the weight of my butt on the chair as I type this. The feel of my fingertips on the keys as I type this. The sensations in my gut as I type this. The awareness of me being aware of me being aware of me as I type this. It is about you reading this. Now. That is all.

It isn't about "the Buddha" or "the Vinaya" or sutras or stupas or incense or zafus or chanting or roshis or robes or Trungpa, Adyashanti, Mahasi Sayadaw, Daniel Ingram, Kenneith Folk (I'd apoligize here except I feel pretty certain Kenneth Folk will agree). All this stuff is about dogma and fetish and religion and sentimentality and romance and myth and literature and history. All fine things but they have NOTHING to do with enlightenment. Nothing.

"@telecaster: Enlightenment is about the feel of the weight of my butt on the chair as I type this. The feel of my fingertips on the keys as I type this. The sensations in my gut as I type this. The awareness of me being aware of me being aware of me as I type this. It is about you reading this. Now. That is all.

It isn't about "the Buddha" or "the Vinaya" or sutras or stupas or incense or zafus or chanting or roshis or robes or Trungpa, Adyashanti, Mahasi Sayadaw, Daniel Ingram, Kenneith Folk (I'd apoligize here except I feel pretty certain Kenneth Folk will agree). All this stuff is about dogma and fetish and religion and sentimentality and romance and myth and literature and history. All fine things but they have NOTHING to do with enlightenment. Nothing."

Bullseye.

Well.... yes and no, MIke. I agree that the point is to wake up and that is, by its nature, more or less independent of the things you list . But I also think the teachers and the teaching are paths and pointers to that ultimate goal. They're not all dogmatic, sentimental fetishists

Think "middle way."

"
Well.... yes and no, MIke. I agree that the point is to wake up and that is, by its nature, more or less independent of the things you list . But I also think the teachers and the teaching are paths and pointers to that ultimate goal. They're not all dogmatic, sentimental fetishists

Think "middle way."

"

I agree.

Rodney constantly tries to engage people in the sangha to make it seem smaller through alternating weekly discussion periods, dyads, mindfulness daylongs, etc., but to me, being new, it still feels similar to what I experienced growing up, going to church.

But that isn't a criticism of Rodney. LIke I said, I think he genuinely wants people to wake up and snap out of their self-centered, spiritual ego, chronic-meditator ruts.

What I'm struggling with is, is it in my best interest, as in supporting my process of awakening, to be involved in an organized sangha with many members who, in my newbie assessment, seem perfectly fine with the mushroom culture (or maybe that's just my conditioned response to seeing people who've been coming to it for a long time and still seem to be "struggling"), or do I need a more direct approach. Saying that, I also know that I can make out of the sangha whatever I want and it's all up to me what I get out of it.

I've tasted the enlightenment over and over again in my life (I now realize) and I don't want to develop a spiritual identity or a churchgoer lifestyle. I want to keep waking up!

What are other people's experiences with being a part of a sangha vs. more of a solo-ish practice vs. ???

Do you just learn the discernment over time? Keep sitting and it works itself out if you have the right intention on the path?

"


.
I've tasted the enlightenment over and over again in my life (I now realize) and I don't want to develop a spiritual identity or a churchgoer lifestyle. I want to keep waking up!

What are other people's experiences with being a part of a sangha vs. more of a solo-ish practice vs. ???

Do you just learn the discernment over time? Keep sitting and it works itself out if you have the right intention on the path?"

God, that is a good question.
You want to be in a sangha for the support, community, teachings, encouragement in awakening but the sangha is part of the mushroom culture.
What do you do?
I imagine that if you challenged the mushroom aspects of the sangha things could get VERY uncomfortable. I don't think I'd have the nerve to do that.
The fact that there may not be a solution to this problem short of taking the teachings for the value they have for you while keeping quiet about your opinions shows just how powerful the mushroom culture can really be.
I'm curious to see if anyone else has an answer.
About a year ago a Fronsdal student started a Modesto Insight Society or something like that in my town. I can't go because by the time I get home from work their meetings are almost over (and my x-wife and mother-in-law attend as well as this woman I used to be obsessed with) Anyway, I've often wondered if I did go and asked the leader about the "maps" and where she might be on them, etc. what kind of reaction I'd get. Maybe I'd be surprised and she'd be open, I don't know. I wonder.

"For some people the Mushroom Culture is a happy convenience. Think about it.

More later..."-cmarti

Can you say more about this, Chris? I sense a very thought-provoking post on the way.

Kenneth

"Rodney constantly tries to engage people in the sangha to make it seem smaller through alternating weekly discussion periods, dyads, mindfulness daylongs, etc., but to me, being new, it still feels similar to what I experienced growing up, going to church."

Being a newb, I messed up my reply and deleted the original post this one was building off.

In short: for a few months I've been going to the Seattle Insight Meditiation Society whose leading teacher is Rodney Smith. From the limited exposure I've had, I think Rodney really gets it and wants to help people wake up. He constantly reminds people to use meditation as a tool to realize the awareness/awakeness that is always with them, but not to get stuck on perfecting the tool for its own sake. He points out the benefits of meditation, but always reminds that it isn't the goal...becoming a good meditator isn't the goal.

So, I'm perfectly fine with the teachings of the leader/director of the sangha. The sand in my mouth is figuring out what makes sense for my own path. Engaging in the sangha as a learning experience and as maybe the best point of contact and support in the area I live in, or keeping it kind of loose and objective where I don't put too much stock in the group, just float in, glean what I can, but stick to what I know inside to be MY path...waking up, seeing reality for what it is, seeing my place in that reality, and letting everything be. I still have a ton to experience through the process of inquiry and observation. I still have a good deal of sureing up of the foundation. And I still have a lot of tension to uncover and let loose. But I feel like I know where it's going.

How have other people answered this?

"Enlightenment is about the feel of the weight of my butt on the chair as I type this. The feel of my fingertips on the keys as I type this. The sensations in my gut as I type this. The awareness of me being aware of me being aware of me as I type this. It is about you reading this. Now. That is all.

It isn't about "the Buddha" or "the Vinaya" or sutras or stupas or incense or zafus or chanting or roshis or robes or Trungpa, Adyashanti, Mahasi Sayadaw, Daniel Ingram, Kenneith Folk (I'd apoligize here except I feel pretty certain Kenneth Folk will agree). All this stuff is about dogma and fetish and religion and sentimentality and romance and myth and literature and history. All fine things but they have NOTHING to do with enlightenment. Nothing. "

What a great post, Mike!

Enlightenment is also about feeling the weight-of-milennia of tradition on my mind, feeling the romantic tugging in my chest, listening to the rustle of mental gestures of respect towards the likes of the Buddha, Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw, and Kenneth and Daniel, all as I type this, noticing the mixed feelings I have about the whole spiritual-religious circus. It's the feel of my fingertips on the pages of MCTB, when I leaf through it in search for something about the the searching.

Yeah, it's about waking up, and out here in the sunlight of the anti-mushroom-culture we're at least not intellectually misled or deluded, and that's a good thing, and it's also very easy to fall into the same silly patterns regarding this that are prevalent in more fungoid places.

Cheers,
Florian

""For some people the Mushroom Culture is a happy convenience. Think about it.

More later..."-cmarti
"

I know for me, the Mushroom Culture is a great attraction for my ego. I'm someone who has always looked outside for identity and belonging to a group...searching for approval and inclusion...likely a by-product of my narcissistic parents. So the idea of joining in with a sangha, immitating others, taking on the self-deprecating humor of knowing the path I'm on doesn't lead to awakening, but does lead to inclusion and an identity as a struggling meditator, all those things are very alluring to my ego. They are something that is at least known. I can picture myself getting older, going to weekly sits and retreats, still caught up in the drama and struggle of daily life, but with a spiritual identity that lets me define who I am. I'm the hippie spiritual guy with zen sayings on my cube wall and a house full of books who smells faintly of sandalwood at all times. I can "be" that. It's there for the taking and will lead to a certain amount of cool demeanor and more calm way of going through life.

But what I see right now is that all of that will not lead me, and in fact will likely stand in the way if I'm not very careful/open, of me truly waking up and being free from suffering.

So I'm cautious of not going there, given my proclivities in life here to fore

Which of course are nothing but a story of how I've reacted. They aren't me. They are just what's been done. And there's no reason to keep doing that...I contain multitudes, why act from the same conditions all the time?

Which leads me to...maybe the test is to be a part of the sangha, but use it as a way to test the attachment of my ego? Do I get wrapped up in identity with it? Or do I (can I) let the ego do its thing while resting in awareness of what's happening?

"I know for me, the Mushroom Culture is a great attraction for my ego. I'm someone who has always looked outside for identity and belonging to a group...searching for approval and inclusion...likely a by-product of my narcissistic parents. So the idea of joining in with a sangha, immitating others, taking on the self-deprecating humor of knowing the path I'm on doesn't lead to awakening, but does lead to inclusion and an identity as a struggling meditator, all those things are very alluring to my ego. They are something that is at least known. I can picture myself getting older, going to weekly sits and retreats, still caught up in the drama and struggle of daily life, but with a spiritual identity that lets me define who I am. I'm the hippie spiritual guy with zen sayings on my cube wall and a house full of books who smells faintly of sandalwood at all times. I can "be" that. It's there for the taking and will lead to a certain amount of cool demeanor and more calm way of going through life.

"

That is so awesome.
Of course the whole "eastern spirituality scene" isn't like that, but what you descibe is kind of true.
A long time ago my wife and kids and I went to a "family day" at Spirit Rock. it was fun. At lunch time one of the presenters (storyteller) who was a real cool sandalwood kind of guy sat down to chat with us. It was so embarassing because we clearly were not interesting and cool in the right way for him cause he started looking around for other people to talk to right away and then quickly left. It was like a high school lunch room and getting rejected by the popular kid.
My advice: wake up in the morning and be true to yourself all day. If that means showing up at the sangha then show up at the sangha with full sincerity. If it means never going to another sangha event, then so be it, you'll wind up where YOU need to be.

"My advice: wake up in the morning and be true to yourself all day. If that means showing up at the sangha then show up at the sangha with full sincerity. If it means never going to another sangha event, then so be it, you'll wind up where YOU need to be. "

Sounds perfect. I didn't mean to denegrate the sangha itself in any way...I think they have some great stuff going.

I just have to be vigilant and see when the ego starts to bite for a hook. Even watching that bite, that urge to bite, is just another opportunity to wake up...so...there's nothing that can't be grist for the mill, eh?

"Sounds perfect. I didn't mean to denegrate the sangha itself in any way...I think they have some great stuff going.

I just have to be vigilant and see when the ego starts to bite for a hook. Even watching that bite, that urge to bite, is just another opportunity to wake up...so...there's nothing that can't be grist for the mill, eh?
"

I'm sure they do have great stuff going. I sure don't mean to make some kind of blanket statement about such organizations. A lot of good stuff comes from them. They are usually mushroomy but that doesn't mean they are valueless, just that they don't think it is right, polite or good to have full disclosure at all times about things having to do with enlightenment and spiritual growht. So, i don't agree with that aspect but love the basic teachings conveyed. And, of course, someone here and there IS getting enlightened, right? It can't be that it is just a bunch of people who know all the teachings, techniques, rituals, trappings and lingo and maybe do the medition somewhat but who are not even at A&P or first path but who are considered advanced students or teachers? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. I really can't imagine that that is the case.
I just read an article about Noah Levine. He seems interesting and odd and innovative and bold. But, since he has "teaching approval" from Jack Kornfield I assume he has stream entry and then some and that sort of colors how I look at what he says and does, you know?
My best guess right now is that these IMS inspired groups keep the enlightenment talk out of polite conversation but that selected, advanced students do get info on the maps, etc. in more private settings. sound right?

Good discussion going here. I'm not in any way disagreeing with what Mike said about enlightenment not being about the the Vanaya, (rules made by the Buddha for his followers), fair enough. But I am very much in favor of taking a good look at why this situation exists in the first place before we go raging againt the machine.

I have a HUGE amount of confidence in what the Buddha was teaching, and if he saw fit to include "not makeing a false claim of attainment" as being one of the most grievous offences that a follower can commit, I think it bares some degree of consideration. I'm not defending the mushroom culture which has seemingly arrisen from that rule, it sucks, obviously. But the Buddha did not lay this Vanaya code down arbitrarily, so I'm not going to ignore certain parts of it arbitrarily just because they don't suit me.

We are lucky to have more than our share of good teachers in the West, I would like it if they were respected by their counterparts in the East. We have to appreciate that by the eastern monastic way of thinking what we are talking about here is nothing less than disregarding an offence which the Buddha said was on-par with killing someone.

"."

Mark, I also think our orientations to "Buddhism" are probably different.
I practice some techniques adapted from some of the teachings of the Buddha and his followers for my own reasons and purposes. I have no interest in "the Buddha," other than that. What he did, said, believed, what rules he created -- this all means nothing to me. I want to be blunt about this so I can be very clear. I'm not against "the Buddha" and "Buddhism" -- I just DON'T CARE. I'm not interested. I don't care about eastern monastic ways of thinking or eastern counterparts in the east.
But you DO care, right? That works for you while being more of a dharma-inspired non-religious atheist works for me.
The best teaching of the Buddha I think was to always work out truth for oneself, to be a light unto oneself. If that means taking certain parts of his life and teaching and leaving out the rest I really doubt he'd care.