the anti-mushroom culture

What did not seem to fail me thus far is careful perusal of traditional sources combined with an even more cautious approach to innovative ideas.

Then again it all could have been luck till now, what do I know?

Andrew

P.S. Btw Kenneth, thank you for providing the background details to yours as well as others' experiences regarding the "passing of lineage". This in itself allows me to hold a more nuanced view that "feels" like it's closer to reality.

Sorry to be such a curmudgeon, but I think a lineage is about as useful as a cup of warm spit.--KF

I would ever-so-slightly disagree about the usefulness of lineage, having spent some time with a couple of teachers whose salient feature was having 'disowned' their own teachers and declared their own enlightenment, and therefore gave no example of appreciating those who helped them in the past. Of the two, one declared that no one before or since [or who would appear in the future] equaled his own attainment. The other claimed to have 'democratized' enlightenment-- apparently a good thing, but there wasn't the capacity to really mentor 'realizers' in the stages after the initial breakthrough.
So, I agree that lineage isn't some sort of ironclad guarantee-- either way: of enlightenment or unenlightenment. But it is one of the factors to consider. And I'm VERY skeptical of the self-anointed, especially those among them who are aggressively self-promotional and dismissive of those who disagree with them.
However, lineage can reinforce a practitioner's own unexamined prejudices. It can be a 'shortcut' to avoid doing the work of paying attention. It can provide the illusory 'security' of groupthink.

"On the other hand, post-modern approaches to the age old problem (relief of unsatisfactoriness of experience) could lead into things like Actual Freedom - and I don't even know what to say about that."-Seekr

LOL. Touché, sir.



I think we are always cast back upon our own resources. The most famous of Buddha quotes comes to mind: "Ehi passiko" (Come and see.) We can't depend on any licensing authority or anyone's self-assessment. We just have to run the experiment and see what shakes out. There's no free lunch on Enlightenment Street (liberally paraphrased from economist Milton Friedman).

Kenneth

"Everybody plays the game, everybody is assumed politely to be at roughly the same level of attainment. To act otherwise is deemed rude, offensive, not nice, not what good Buddhists do. It's like water seeking it's natural level. It pools up in the lowest point. In the case of western Buddhist gatherings and online communities, it tends to pool at the lowest common denominator. This is convenient for some folks."

I think what you're describing here is the same garbage that pollutes our Western (specifically, North American) education system, which is an insistence on "regression to the mean." Above average students are held back, and below average students are carried forward even when they aren't ready, all in the name of good progress and egalitarianism. Makes my skin crawl just to think about it.

Hierarchy is a fact of life. There are those who are realized, and those who not, and those who fall somewhere in-between. Being open and honest about this stuff may be uncomfortable for some. But rather than throwing in the towel, we can use that tension as a mobilizing force to re-double our commitment to good, sound practice.

In other words, we should put this "inconvenient truth" to good use.

~Jackson

"Sorry to be such a curmudgeon, but I think a lineage is about as useful as a cup of warm spit.
"

I am a lineage holder in the Jewish tradition and can trace my lineage back to the great Hasidic masters of the 17th century. I'm also the dharma heir, so to speak, of my Jewish meditation teacher. All this does is cause people to make assumptions about me and project their stuff on me. It's of no use to me or to them, and and those assumptions have a tendency to taint the relationship before it's even begun.

And what does it mean anyway? In terms of gender alone, I would be utterly unrecognizable as a lineage holder to the founders of the lineage. The same is true of my beliefs and practices even to some of those who ordained me less than a decade ago.

So what does it mean to anyone that I have an auspicious lineage within certain circles? Not much, I'd say, except to the ego. I'm with Kenneth on this.

"I am a lineage holder in the Jewish tradition and can trace my lineage back to the great Hasidic masters of the 17th century. I'm also the dharma heir, so to speak, of my Jewish meditation teacher. All this does is cause people to make assumptions about me and project their stuff on me. It's of no use to me or to them, and and those assumptions have a tendency to taint the relationship before it's even begun.

And what does it mean anyway? In terms of gender alone, I would be utterly unrecognizable as a lineage holder to the founders of the lineage. The same is true of my beliefs and practices even to some of those who ordained me less than a decade ago."-Ihamo

Wow. There's a reality check. Both jarring and delightfully refreshing. More like a bucket of cold water in the face than a cup of warm spit. Thanks for the clarity and detail, Ihamo.

A view from way outside: "lineage holder" is more like being designated the abbot, someone that will look after the organization but is too busy to be a spiritual friend. The real treasures are the non lineaged teacher that still has time to teach. More gets done at the sides of business meetings than during the meeting agenda itself.

Reading this thread, I've been wondering what an anti-mushroom sangha would look like in the real world. Let's say a yogi from Kenneth's online community was walking down the street, picked up a lottery ticket, and hit the "Powerball" or some such. The yogi buys a building and fills it with meditation cushions. What next? How does the anti-mushroom culture play out?
For example, what is kept between a student and teacher in interviews, and what would people be encouraged to talk about openly in group discussions? How much traditional dharma would be taught, and in what style? How much focus would there be on "working with your stuff" or would that actually become taboo in the new culture? Would there be any chants or forms? How would newcomers be introduced to practical dharma? Would there be classes? Who would teach them? How would disputes about claims of attainments be handled? Let's say the student blew the lottery money on sports cars and rent had to be paid. What would happen to the uncompromising approach if the community had to start thinking about finding ways to keep newcomers coming in the door and signing up as paying members? I don't know if these questions are of interest to anyone else. It's certainly true that mainstream dharma centers have to deal with this kind of stuff. Is it inevitable that the water has to pool at its lowest level? (OK, I'm guessing I just killed this thread...)

"Reading this thread, I've been wondering what an anti-mushroom sangha would look like in the real world. Let's say a yogi from Kenneth's online community was walking down the street, picked up a lottery ticket, and hit the "Powerball" or some such. The yogi buys a building and fills it with meditation cushions. What next? How does the anti-mushroom culture play out?
For example, what is kept between a student and teacher in interviews, and what would people be encouraged to talk about openly in group discussions? How much traditional dharma would be taught, and in what style? How much focus would there be on "working with your stuff" or would that actually become taboo in the new culture? "

Well, this is fun, imagining what we'd do if there were no barriers to developing an anti-mushroom sangha...
Wait! Isn't that what we're doing right here? If we had a building, that would create geographical barriers that don't exist now. If we organized a formal institutional structure, that would derail the interesting investigations into small-group political organizing-- which can consume all the time and energy available. If there were extensive rules about what experiential and practice focus we had to have, unaffiliated anarchists like me would leave...

If I was the lottery winning yogi I might buy a building but I wouldn't fill it with cushions and start a sangha type place I might make some no-strings attached donations to certain teacher type people that I like and believe in.
The anti-mushroom culture sangha already exists.
Still, what a great question. I think you should actually answer the question and write the answer as a novel.

"Reading this thread, I've been wondering what an anti-mushroom sangha would look like in the real world. Let's say a yogi from Kenneth's online community was walking down the street, picked up a lottery ticket, and hit the "Powerball" or some such. How much traditional dharma would be taught, and in what style? It's certainly true that mainstream dharma centers have to deal with this kind of stuff. Is it inevitable that the water has to pool at its lowest level? "

Power ball was @$212M last night, not that I noticed Actually, I have been thinking about your question already...

My vision would be a building near the train station where people could sit for a half hour and/or check in with a non-denominational meditation teacher before they went home. The teachers would come from hopefully multiple backgrounds, including christianity, buddhism, and islam. It would have individual meditation cells rather than an open room.

Nearby would be an urban retreat center. Very small rooms for sleeping and meditating and eating, a courtyard for walking, a cook and teacher on staff. Work meditation would be facilities maintenance.

For both: focus on individual contemplation practice. At some point it will dawn on the student, that there aren't enough hours in a lifetime to practice... then the teacher can say that practice is 100% of the time and build expectations that the student was integrating with community.

Something like that. So the water pools at the individual's level, so to speak.

forgot to mention... the train station centre also allows for daily retreats (12+ hours).

" Isn't that what we're doing right here? If we had a building, that would create geographical barriers that don't exist now. If we organized a formal institutional structure, that would derail the interesting investigations into small-group political organizing-- which can consume all the time and energy available. If there were extensive rules about what experiential and practice focus we had to have, unaffiliated anarchists like me would leave..."

It's a great point, Roomy--we have a sangha here in many respects. In fact, the kinds of discussions that go on here, just as a matter of course, rarely happen at many established centers, and we have Kenneth's helpful voice and guidance. On the other hand, I'm not sure an online community can replace a sangha in which people meet face-to-face.
Three people responded to my questions, and you can already see the challenges that would be presented by trying to start an actual physical sangha. Roomy and Mike ain't buying the necessity of it at all. Betawave wants this non-denominational, urban thing that would be very different and cutting-edge. I'm still OK with the basic IMC/IMS model, but reformed to emphasize anti-mushroom stuff. So basically all of us would have to give up a major amount of territory in order to make a sangha work at all. I have all of these criticisms of my local sanghas: I can't hack the costumes and forms at the Zen center; I find the Tibetan stuff too baroque and magic/mythic. Meanwhile, the vipassana sitting group we've tried to start in Atlanta isn't attracting more than four or five people. I was by myself last week and am a bit discouraged about it. Seems like everybody has a "what's in it for me?" attitude. We all seem to be looking for a sangha made perfectly in our own image: "This is too formal and weird, that is too soft and mushroomy." This is one of the Three Jewels. It's supposed to be important!

" I have all of these criticisms of my local sanghas: I can't hack the costumes and forms at the Zen center; I find the Tibetan stuff too baroque and magic/mythic ... We all seem to be looking for a sangha made perfectly in our own image"

Wow! that just captured my own feelings exactly. I have been unhappy with most of the places I've been for these very reasons and I've often wondered if the problem isn't with those places but with me...

Still, forums like this give me a lot of hope. I think that I'm finally on the right path for me and it took a long time to find it. I could probably go back to those places with a different attitude now that I'm expecting less from them.

Many of us have gone through this and have felt alone. If you are serious about this enlightenment stuff, it is bound to get lonely. The whole world seems to be headed in the opposite direction.

"Many of us have gone through this and have felt alone. If you are serious about this enlightenment stuff, it is bound to get lonely. The whole world seems to be headed in the opposite direction. "

True enough, Ron. But we've got stuff like KFD and Buddhist Geeks. That's what's so cool about the arrival of the Internet. I'm still pondering the role of sangha and whether online stuff can be a true substitute. In any case, I'm very grateful for the online communities that are forming....

"True enough, Ron. But we've got stuff like KFD and Buddhist Geeks. That's what's so cool about the arrival of the Internet. I'm still pondering the role of sangha and whether online stuff can be a true substitute. In any case, I'm very grateful for the online communities that are forming.... "

Why not have both-- an online dialog that helps you refine your View, and whatever local sangha seems best for ongoing group meditation and a sense of participation in a group effort that is less virtual? With the exception of groups who are doing guided, or Koan-type meditation, the refinements of the method you use in your sitting are not really apparent to other group members. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but it seems to me that as interest in meditation grows, there will be more nondenominational groups.

"Why not have both-- an online dialog that helps you refine your View, and whatever local sangha seems best for ongoing group meditation and a sense of participation in a group effort that is less virtual? With the exception of groups who are doing guided, or Koan-type meditation, the refinements of the method you use in your sitting are not really apparent to other group members. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but it seems to me that as interest in meditation grows, there will be more nondenominational groups. "

That's a great point, Roomy. I'm actually thinking about doing this. I'm also going to do more to build attendance for the vipassana sitting group that we've tried to start. It gets a little discouraging when, say, a total of one or two people show up. On the other hand, we haven't done enough to promote the group and let people know it exists. Maybe a Cessna towing a big banner around Atlanta? Hmmmm...

For some reason my local Zen center is engaged in a very public marketing campaign that says, in effect, "We're more like vipassana than Zen!" "We won't hit you with sticks," is how I hear it

I'm convinced that any spiritual thing that is a "group" of some kind especially if has a leader is always at least a little more about the people and the group and hiercarchy and politics than it is about meditation or spiritual growth. And usually way more than a little. Sure, people may do the practice and get growth but social pyschology is just too powerful and it's truths of group and social behavior trump anything else going on.
I've been involved in a lot of local small sitting groups in the past. Nice people, nice groups, usually. But, so irritating at times because EVERY meeting had a discussion period and every discussion was about "what kind of group do we want to be?"
and,

I totally agree with the downsides of groups, some of which are pretty much cults--let's face it.
However, there is this person who's at a stage where he's like a caged animal--suffering no matter where he turns, and is looking for some kind of different way of approaching this, of getting out of samsara. At their best, organized sanghas like IMC or IMS give newcomers a way to learn the basic meditation practice face-to-face with an instructor who, presumably, can actually help them progress with it to some degree and give them a way to express and work through the challenges they face in doing the practice. I mean, the basic discovery of thought as just one of the objects of awareness, rather than being the sum total of who and what we are--that is just huge for people. These places give people an actual, reasonably quiet and amenable location in which to do the practice, which is important. (I'll admit to being one of those people who was fascinated and entertained by the trappings. I wanted the nice wood floors, cushions all lined up in a row, statues and flowers and so forth, even though much of the time I told myself that I hated those things.) And of course there's the whole sangha aspect--friends, enemies and neutral figures all mixing it up and sometimes supporting and helping each other.
So it seems like part of the role of these centers is to give people what it is they need to get a handle on their suffering and, eventually, get on the ride. The problem, of course, is the mushroom culture that then holds everybody back at a certain point. I'd be a regular if we had an IMC or an IMS in my 'hood, in part because of the more rational approach, the lack of emphasis on magic/mythic stuff, relatively speaking. But maybe I should consider going to the Zen center. Hmmm....

jgroove:
I agree with your description of the positive aspects.
With my weird comute I just cant get involved in any groups right now but if I could I try it again.
Thoughts as just objects of awareness -- you are right, that is so huge. It's almost a dividing line for me.

"
For some reason my local Zen center is engaged in a very public marketing campaign that says, in effect, "We're more like vipassana than Zen!" "We won't hit you with sticks," is how I hear it

"

Very interesting. The Kadampa Institute in Seattle seems to be advertising very heavily these days as well. Lots of posters around town, sign boards, etc. Not a bad thing...maybe some people will get curious, stumble around the teachings, then wind up here or elsewhere and wake-up.

I just find it interesting. In times of chaos, Great Recession, what-have-you, there tends to be a run towards spiritual grouding as a way to make sense of it all. Even if that means running to a mushroom culture for many people, I'd much rather have them there than at a radical/fundamentalist christian church.

Better to grow mushrooms that treat eachother better and are generally kind, if still asleep, than mushrooms that want to kill all the arabs.

"
Better to grow mushrooms that treat eachother better and are generally kind, if still asleep, than mushrooms that want to kill all the arabs."

LOL That's a wonderful spin on the thing!

"Very interesting. The Kadampa Institute in Seattle seems to be advertising very heavily these days as well. Lots of posters around town, sign boards, etc. Not a bad thing...maybe some people will get curious, stumble around the teachings, then wind up here or elsewhere and wake-up.

I just find it interesting. In times of chaos, Great Recession, what-have-you, there tends to be a run towards spiritual grouding as a way to make sense of it all. Even if that means running to a mushroom culture for many people, I'd much rather have them there than at a radical/fundamentalist christian church.

Better to grow mushrooms that treat eachother better and are generally kind, if still asleep, than mushrooms that want to kill all the arabs."

Buddhists treat me people kindly.
Christians want to kill all the Arabs.

"Buddhists treat me people kindly.
Christians want to kill all the Arabs.
"

Well, I was making hyperbole for the sake of levity

I don't take either of those (or my) statements to be "true".

Christians want love, buddhists want love, all beings want love...but some cultures pervert that drive for love and shape it into a meme of hate.

As I often say to my christian fundamentalist friends:

If God/Jesus was love, so can you.