Fruitions

I was recently re-reading Kenneth's letter from 1995 giving advice to Daniel Ingram. In it Kenneth talked about yogis he knew who had gotten 1st path who had differing abilities concerning fruitions/cessation and calling them up. One he knew, could stay in the cessation for up to two hours but couldn't repeat it more than once a day. Another yogi could stay in the cessation for 15 minutes or so repeatedly during the day. Other yogis could call up a fruition repeatedly and have as many as they wanted during the day but the fruition would last only a fraction of a second.

I fall into the latter category. But I was wondering if it is possible to develop skills to do the other mentioned examples or is it just something you have to accept? I am the multiple fraction of a second fruition yogi and that's that.

Wouldn't mind knowing what other post path yogis can do with fruitions. Kenneth, is there a way to develop staying in a fruition for more than a split second? And isn't that just Nirodha Samapati? This goes back to my old Nirodha Sampati VS Phala samapati thread. I don't think my question ever got answered completely and I am still curious.

Are there examples of sotapanna who can experience fruitions of more than a fraction of a second and if so, what is the difference bewteen that and the anagami and arhat skill of nirodha samapati? Is it just the entrance to it that differs? Or have I misunderstood something?

Kenneth, you said in that letter that one should master the fruitions as best one can before moving on to the next path. Can you elaborate on this and my other questions? And if anyone else can chime in please do? I want to settle this curiosity once and for all.

This was the section of your letter to Daniel that stood out to me as well Kenneth. Thanks for bringing this up Nikolai--some clarification would be greatly appreciated

I'll third that. Can someone explain to me why anyone would want to remain in fruition for extended periods of time? Call me stupid, but I fail to see the point. Fruitions for me are momentary, fleeting, actually, and what happens inside them is a total mystery. Now, maybe there's something inside them that I should be able to see and that thing is precious and extremely important. Otherwise, I see fruitions as some sort of natural marker of something going on that seems to mark progress on the path of insight.

Help me

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I'll third that. Can someone explain to me why anyone would want to remain in fruition for extended periods of time? Call me stupid, but I fail to see the point. Fruitions for me are momentary, fleeting, actually, and what happens inside them is a total mystery. Now, maybe there's something inside them that I should be able to see and that thing is precious and extremely important. Otherwise, I see fruitions as some sort of natural marker of something going on that seems to mark progress on the path of insight.

Help me



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But if mastering calling them up speeds up the progress or makes me into a flying magical yogi, I wanna know!!!!! My curiosity must be satisfied, I tells ya!


Hehe!

I want to be awake, Nikolai. All the other stuff is a distraction unless there is some very important part that furthers that goal.

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I want to be awake, Nikolai. All the other stuff is a distraction unless there is some very important part that furthers that goal.

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Fair enough, you are in that place where you don't want any distractions. Good for you!

However, Kenneth talked about it to Daniel in his letter and I just would like some more info on it. It was important enough for him to talk about then, maybe he has changed his mind now. I'd like to know.

I am very much into all this. it is part of my personality. Like I said in the other thread, I am Mogallana, and you are Maha Kassapa , I dig all of the stuff you may find distracting. Maybe I wont get distracted maybe I will. Once my curiosity gets satisfied, then I'll be able to move on. One day i may arrive at where you are or not. I respect your ideas on all this but understand, we are not all the same.

Sorry if I seem edgy, I am. I have been noting quite a lot of edgy harsh feelings in my chest region today. It's making me jumpy.
Metta!

You're more than welcome to explore what yuou want to explore, Nikolai. It's your life, your decision. Maybe, too, if you're in the place or places you are talking about here on the message boards these days (uncomfortable, edgy, etc.) then I'm sort of surprised you don't want to focus on how to advance through that as opposed to side tracking into mystical stuff. Just a thought. That kind of thing is, really, a distraction from the main point and I feel the need to point that out, that's all. Yes, that stuff is all there and available but if you're having some trouble where you are now what's going to happen if you get into trouble in that realm?

Anyway, that's the last I'll say about it.

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I understand your concern, Chris. Thanks for that. All I want to know about in this thread is about fruitions and if Kenneth could elaborate on the part he wrote about it in his letter to Daniel which he has posted on this site and which is there for a reason...or maybe it is not. Can you please clarify this , Kenneth?

Bump!

So I am still too overly curious about all this stuff and I think it is important to talk about cos many people within the Goenka tradition have this idea of what someone who has attained stream entry can do...

"Therefore the real test as to whether one has become an Ariya lies in his ability to go in to the fruition state (Phala) as he may like. While in that State, he is oblivious of any feeling through the five organs of senses. At the same time, his body posture (Iriyapatha) becomes firm and tightened in the same way as one who goes into a Jhanic trance. As between Jhana and Phala there are great variations in the mode of entry and exit. An experienced teacher alone will be able to differentiate between the two to the satisfaction of a disciple. Mr. A. has satisfied these requirements. Shall we call him an Ariya?" Sayagyi U Ba Khin.

U Ba Khin talked about his disciples attaining stream entry and them being able to dwell in the fruition for much longer than a fraction of a second. If this is possible for some yogis, what is the difference between dwelling in a fruition for say 15 minutes, where all the senses shut down, and the experience of nirodha samapatti?

Kenneth, could you or anyone else please satisfy this nagging curiosity I have.

Pleeeeeeeaaase....

I made the mistake just after 1st path of telling one of my close dhamma friends about what I did, cos I wanted to help him but he ended up yelling at me that i was having a psychotic episode and that if i really had gotten path, I'd be able to dwell in nibbana for a minute or more. This bugs me for some reason because that is what probably a lot of people believe. Is this correct?

Yeah Nikolai thanks I didn't realize untill recently reading some of your posts that the U Ba Khim/Goenka tradition has such high standards for what a fruition is. Thanks for your input as always, it has made it clear to me that when I sit my next retreat this may I will completely set aside the topic if I have to talk to an AT. I dunno what the deal is, there is another fellow I talk to occasionally on another site who has been in the tradition for 20+ years and he says he tries to avoid talking to the ATs at all costs, he just waits till after the retreat to debrief with his primary teacher... haha....

Sounds like there criteria for stream entry is probably a lot closer to what the Mahasi tradition would think of as a higher path... weird. It is a blessing to have easy access to long periods of sitting in seclusion but its sad how those guys drop the ball on actually getting people to SE...

Yeh Clayton,

I just have major reservations about talking and asking for advice from the ATs but also i felt and would feel still very reluctant to talk to the high up teachers in that tradition.
It is sad. I mean, the whole idea is to get SE but I don't think they know how to guide someone there. I'd imagine if I was truthful with the head teacher there I'd get asked to leave, banned from attending more courses for "lying" not being able to sit in nibbbna for more than a minute. I guess that is why I want to know more about fruitions and the seemingly different abilities of some yogis.


What happens when more and more kids getting access to Daniel's book and Kenneth's wisdom, go and start "dipping", to put it their way, in their courses like I did? The teacher on the course where I got 1st was and is probably quite the exception so I was lucky he wanted to humour me and stay with me without validating anything of what I said. But by the end of the course it was fairly obvious that he had not experienced anything of what i was going through....he openly admited that he knew of no-one who had "dipped" in that area...we are talking about the biggest centre in Australia. So I am so grateful to this place and Kenneth. I'd be going it alone without him.

It bugs me!!!! I feel there are so many in that tradition primed to get it done but are thinking they have to exhaust their sankharas before SE. Retarded!!!!!!

Yeah I can relate, I don't think I would even be keen to discuss it with someone high up in the tradition. I really don't get the whole Sankhara thing, it sounds too close to eliminating past Karma which I believe then ancient scriptures clearly say doesn't happen. Holy God the teacher had never heard of anyone dipping in that center? I wonder what the cause for that is? Is it because people experience fruition but don't know what it is? Which would make sense because it is never described in the tradition. Do people experience it but have it invalidated by some (probably well meaning) AT? Is it just that unlikely to experience fruition while doing scanning w/o noting... Which honestly is a little whishy washy... I dipped while noting during a body scan What do you suppose it is Nikolai?

Its good you ran into a good AT... mine on my last retreat was really chill. Of course I realize in retrospect I reported the 2nd 3rd and 4th nana very clearly but he didn't alert me to anything just told me I was making good progress. The only thing he did tell that I take issue with is this... he said if I wanted to continue to develop I could sit another retreat and daily practice was just like maintenance... that is flat out not true as I progressed on to get (what I believe to be) SE about 2.5 months after my first retreat during daily practice... And I read the experience of many here who attain SE without even sitting a retreat! Wow that just goes to show knowledge is power... were all adults here as John Lennon said, 'Just Gimme some truth.' I too wonder what will happen when everyone learns the truth about the stages and goes on 10 day retreats and starts dipping... Sadly they will probably be accused of lying, scripting, etc. and be asked to leave...

P.S. I wonder what the answer to the original question is?

Quote from Robert H. Sharf - Buddhist Modernism:
"Gombrich and Obeyesekere 1988: 454. Objections to the Mahasi method do
not emerge from traditionalist Quarters alone. I was informed by two teachers
associated with U Ba Khin's center in Rangoon that experiences certified as
sotipatti by Mahaisi and his disciples are not the real thing. This is noteworthy, as
many of U Ba Khin's own disciples are believed to have attained the stage of
sotipatti, and thus their objections do not stem from the traditional belief that the
attainment of sotipatti is rare."

Hi Nikolai,

There are 2 questions here: 1) Is it possible to extend fruition/cessation to longer than a fraction of a second, and 2) Is it necessary to do so in order to be a "real" sotapanna. The answer to the first question is yes and the answer to the 2nd question is no.

1) There are 3 kinds of fruitions (not including nirodha samapatti, which is another question entirely): dukkha, anicca, and anatta cessations. Dukkha cessations are always instantaneous, anicca cessations can be sustained, and anatta cessations can be sustained. A yogi who remains without any consciousness of mind and body for 15 minutes or an hour or many hours has entered nibbana through the anatta door. This happens spontaneously at times and can be cultivated. I can attest to this in my own experience. Except for the alert, blissful feeling upon emerging from it, however, it is indistinguishable from deep sleep. You are just "out."

2) Stream entry is attained in the exact moment that one enters nibbana for the first time. This takes just a fraction of a second. This is clearly described as the 12th through 15th Insight Knowledges. At that moment, stream entry is attained. It's like getting pregnant; you can't be "a little bit pregnant." You either are or you aren't.

It's meaningless to talk about "standards" for stream entry based on how long a yogi can dwell in nibbana. The problem with assigning arbitrary standards is that they are arbitrary. You could pick any number. If yogi must prove that she can remain in nibbana for a minute, why not say two minutes? Or 59 seconds? We are just pulling numbers out of the air. Enlightenment doesn't work that way. Stream entry, like pregnancy, is a biological fact that brings irreversible change to the body/mind. You either are or you aren't. Granted, it's not always easy to diagnose, but pulling numbers out a hat doesn't help.

"It's meaningless to talk about "standards" for stream entry based on how long a yogi can dwell in nibbana. The problem with assigning arbitrary standards is that they are arbitrary. You could pick any number. If yogi must prove that she can remain in nibbana for a minute, why not say two minutes? Or 59 seconds? We are just pulling numbers out of the air. Enlightenment doesn't work that way. Stream entry, like pregnancy, is a biological fact that brings irreversible change to the body/mind. You either are or you aren't. Granted, it's not always easy to diagnose, but pulling numbers out a hat doesn't help."

Kind of sounds like the "real" or "hardcore" jhana discussion, elsewhere on the site. And I like the nibbana/pregnancy analogy. Looking forward to getting knocked up, as it were.

I actually had a weird argument with a beginning meditator who claimed to have heard B. Alan Wallace say a yogi has to be able to dwell in hard jhana for four hours without pause before they would be successful at vipassana. Of course, Wallace does not say that and never did say that but that person was basing their entire practice plan on that one misunderstanding. And since it was B. Alan Wallace this person misunderstood , well, it was gospel.

Once again, we are very lucky to have this place.